[Luya Sevrein]

Currently, I'm halfway through a YA book, and have been doing some mid-book editing. I was wondering if anyone has any advice, articles, resources, or, what might be more helpful, is opinions on writing YA or just the genre as a whole. (I'm looking at you, Kat! :P Nahh, and others.)

My story follows Corah, a resident of an outter-state New York town, who is interning with the local Police department. She has a vice for telling lies, worming out of things, and being a great actress/great under pressure, however, she also has some worrying obsessions with the old case files, and criminality in general.

One fateful night, she dies. The death is osmething of an in-joke between my writing group. She attempts, without aid, and while not thinking, to stop what appears to be a mugging, and is accidently shot through the chest. ...Because, you know, not enough of them situations where the kid rnus in screaming 'No' actually end realistically.

It's when she wakes up, covered in blood, with no bullet wound that things begin to get interesting, and confusing. She attempts to discover what has happened to her and what she is, while she begins to see things and get terrifyingly painful headaches.

There are other point-of-view characters, however it is all written third person. There are several subplots from these others which eventually work together, so the whole town buzzes to life. It's urban fantasy, so, there are your Vampires, wares, and the like, however I have invented a few of my own species and include less used ones, such as Neck/Nixie/Nakki and Ghouls (the desert spirit variety).

Deities also play a role later on, and including their mythology was rather fun. I have a short mention of 'The man in the Moon,' who, in myth, connected forbidden lovers by invisible chords under the moonlight.

It's essentially like a Detective/Modern Gang meets Folklore meets Insane God-wannabe folk story.

I want to write a Young Adult novel, or series, that deals with a variety of issues, as well as becomes an adventure. I want it to have action, mystery and thrills beyond wondering if Love Interest #A likes you, back to the Young Adult fiction books with original ideas, and fast-paced plots that are being overshadowed by the love of romantic YA fiction.

I am not naive enough to say that I will include no romance. I know people enjoy romance, and furthermore, I know romance is a part of life, especailly young adult life. It's more that I want to include a meriad of things.

My basic premise is also not the most original, it is urban fantasy, a tried and tested genre, but one I have always enjoyed and think I can bring something new too.

The thing I am having trouble with is the balance between social scenes, social worries, and the actual action. Sometimes, I intrigrate the two, but other times I feel as if I am not writing to my full potential, or that I am not capturing the teenage attitude properly. I read other YA books in order to get a feel, and they range from vastly over-the-top 'OH-EM-GEE' to reading about a bunch of 40-something women in 17-year-old's bodies.

Also, Do you think a YA book can also appeal to many adults? Should you write FOR that or let it come? Etc.

Not all of my characters are teenagers, either. It is more the tale of a town, and it's crime-ridden residants, from the view points of a number of characters. The main view points are that of teenagers, and I think the book appeals to the YA classification, hence... YA.

What are the major pitfalls, etc? Oh, I don't know, I'm just ranting by this point. Let's discuss some YA Urban fantasy writing.

[KatG]

back to the Young Adult fiction books with original ideas, and fast-paced plots that are being overshadowed by the love of romantic YA fiction.

This is not actually happening in the market. Don't let what you are picking to read and disappointed in become your mirror for the market. You will be missing a lot of what is going on. Remember, a lot of titles that get extolled for their romance aren't actually that romantic and ones that are and are popular do not "overwhelm" other things happening in the market, which are very myriad at the moment and which always relies on variety. It's important if you're going into the YA market that you do so not with the attitude that female YA authors are mostly romance writers or that the ones who definitively are constitute a problem.

YA's core group has always been fantasy. And of that fantasy, the stories have always been more urban fantasy than of any other kind. So again, it's important to understand that you are not writing in a new, burgeoning sub-category but in what has always been the core category of YA and children's fiction.

I read other YA books in order to get a feel, and they range from vastly over-the-top 'OH-EM-GEE' to reading about a bunch of 40-something women in 17-year-old's bodies.

Yes, that's the range. The YA age designation of loosely 12+ is not always the whole target of an author. They may be writing for more of the 10-14 end of the scale, doing something solidly for 12-15 or doing something that's definitely aimed though not exclusive to 15 and up. So the stylistic differences will be wide. Your style and your target are what you choose to explore. Your character is an older teenager, I would assume, since she's interning at the police station and attempts to stop a mugging. So you are perfectly accessible to eleven year olds but you're aiming for the higher end of the teen age scale. And yes, some adults will be reading the books, especially if you do well. But if you are gunning for the YA market, they are not your main audience. The premise is such that if you wanted to switch it to early twenties and college age main characters instead of teenagers and tackle the adult market instead, it would probably be relatively easy to do. But the teen stuff is fun for a modern gang concept. You can also write a book about teens and market it to the adult audience. So it depends on what audience you want to primarily market to.

In YA, you will be slightly limited in the graphic-ness of material. Slightly. So that's something to keep in mind in writing and plotting. On average the books are shorter in length, in the 50,000-120,000 word range, but a number are longer. If you're honest about where you're coming from, from your own experience as a teen, then it's probably going to ring true. And you don't have to have a ton of social material in the story if you don't want it, although if you are trying to show and build the community of the town, then probably you are going to want some social material and some world-building establishing material.

If you're worried about the romance aspect, try writing the story without any romance in it at all. Then you can add the romance in later during rewrites if you want it. If you're worried about the feel of the teenage voices, running bits past teens and seeing what they think about how credible it sounds is usually a good tactic.

High action is much loved in YA. Rick Riordan, John Flanagan, James Patterson, Garth Nix, Philip Reeve, Cherie Priest, Margaret Peterson Haddix, etc. lots of suspense (which is basically what urban fantasy is,) lots of adventure stories. Hard social issues, great. Puzzles, they love them. For community-building stuff, you might want to check out the award-winning novel Moon Over Manifest by Clare Vanderpool. I'd also recommend John Green if you have not read him. He's basically worshiped by a cult and my daughter is a member. :) (They aren't SFF.)

A substantial number of YA authors also write material for the adult market, so you are not locked in if you choose to market in YA. And YA has more growth going at the moment.

For specific YA urban fantasy issues, ask specific YA urban fantasy questions. :)

[Luya Sevrein]

Oh, I know I shan't be writing anything terribley original, just my own spin on an existing subgenre with my own ideas. I've likely been inspired by the books that are already out there, the books I read, the type of atmosphere that was created for me, and that's why I want to drown in it in turn. A lot of what you have said has reassured me. I have many ideas and half-written drafts for books in other markets, such as General Fantasy - the one with the railroads and technology sparking up. 8D

I'm simply saying that the YA that becomes popular as of the past five or so years has been largely romantic, or at least, the media, reviews, and a large number of readers focus on the romantic elements, or the pot relies on the romance. Such as 'you were fated to be together so that you souls - when linked - can stop the war, le gasp.' If it is not the case that it is the way the market is going then it must be the case that many people focus on it, because there certainly is a rising shift towards it.

The college-age idea would be something to look into, but if I do decide to take the novel to a series, if possible, which I'd like, it does end with many of the characters being that kind of age, so kind of a coming of age arc. Because a lot of books, no matter their audience, do seem to tackle the coming of age period, because it's so inportant. I've noticed General Fantasy does it a lot, actually.

I'm twenty-one, so, at kind of an awkward age to write YA. On one hand I'm all 'Shizzle, I have to pay bills now? What was I bitching about when I was a teenage? IT WAS SO EASY!' and on the other all, 'Why do people treat me like I should know better? I still have no clue what just happened! I feel 17!'

Anyways - I'll think of some more questions, or, if anyone else is writing or reading YA, they can add some as well. Until then just a discussion about writing YA would be appriciated.

I also shall check out those names, thank you. Action is something I have included promptly - writing an action scene right now, actually.

[KatG]

I'm simply saying that the YA that becomes popular as of the past five or so years has been largely romantic, or at least, the media, reviews, and a large number of readers focus on the romantic elements, or the pot relies on the romance. Such as 'you were fated to be together so that you souls - when linked - can stop the war, le gasp.' If it is not the case that it is the way the market is going then it must be the case that many people focus on it, because there certainly is a rising shift towards it.

Media people only pay attention to fiction when there is a big hit and Twilight got their attention, or rather the highly successful film franchise got their attention. The media people then look for trends and since you have a number of women selling well in YA and this then seems rather scary as if the women are taking over (ignoring the guys completely,) and the social media assumption is that women write lighter, romantic books and that this is all teenage girls read, the books are reviewed and talked about in media as how they relate to Twilight, while again the substantial number of guy written books are assumed not to be romantic and ignored unless they have a very big hit or successful film adaptation (such as James Patterson.) There are romantic novels in YA, there are romantic comedies in YA and not all of them are written by women, but there is a much wider landscape of bestsellers and it's a good idea to look at actual authors and not at look what's hot right now articles, as those tend to be a year out of date or more anyway, is all I'm saying.

Right now, SF is doing well in YA, which was expected. But fantasy suspense is always welcome. In writing a fantasy mystery series, you aren't really doing anything that different from a non-SFF mystery series, except that your criminals are vampires, your detective is a dead girl, etc. So concentrating on mystery novels and horror novels set in small towns might be helpful to you too. Stephen King is quite good at the small town settings and try this list, which includes one of Green's books, of YA titles that won the Edgar award for best YA mystery for mystery YA style: http://www.theedgars.com/edgarsDB/index.php

I think really 21 sounds like a perfect age. The conflict you're facing is one that many teenagers are going through -- often having to deal with adult circumstances and being treated like and/or wanting to be treated like an adult but also like teenagers and feeling like teenagers. Confidence and no confidence rolled in one. This is actually a major theme of Twilight, not that anyone bothers to look at it, and a lot of YA, so that conflict you're feeling is very usable, for YA or just for a novel about someone at 21.

[RedMage]

Luya, I'm very happy to see that you will be including other species beyond vampires and werewolves in your story. I have been drifting toward urban/contemporary fantasy for a while now, despite really liking swords, kings, princes, shining armor, and huge, earth shaking magic (i.e. more medieval settings) I'm even writing a contemporary/secondary world fantasy series of novellas and a novel at the moment. So this is a discussion that sounds quite interesting to me!

What I mean about more than the vamps and weres though, is that in almost every urban fantasy series I come across (and I'm sure Kat will disagree w/ me, 'cause let's face it, she is right that what the media says is popular is not actually what is popular) are stories about vampires and werewolves and their interactions. Or it includes them somehow and pretty heavily at that.

I was reading the posts so far and I suddenly realized, that even though I definitely do not want my story to be like this, that it IS turning into that!! I feel there are so many other species and creatures out there that we writers can be using for these kind of stories and that we SHOULD be. Yet all I am really seeing are vampires and werewolves.

So a question for other urban/contemporary fantasy writers:
What other species/creatures are you using in your stories beside vampires and werewolves? And are those species/creatures a significant part of your story (i.e. in other stories are their roles filled by vampires and werewolves)?

[Luya Sevrein]

Thanks, Kat.

Kat's giving me reasons to read Stephen King, as if I needed any, I like this discussion. >D

I do agree, though, that it does depend on what the media portray, and the social media, especailly online. Whenever I search for anyone to have a discussion about regarding YA it's always the 'Omgilovetwilight,' or 'OMGTWILIGHTSUCKEDDON'TWRITETWILIGHT' people. I have a lot of thoughts on Twilight but, Uh, I don't want to get into that with Kat. (:P) I think I did already! I don't actually think Meyer is that bad of a writer stylistically, but I just did not enjoy the plot/find the relevance.

A lot of the books I read from 11-14/15 were actually largely action-based, action/adventure, more world changing, etc. I'm wondering if anyone has any examples of action/adventure/plot-driven books for the ages of 16-18-21? I know there are some, I've read them, I'm just drawing such a blank.

As for other races? Well, there's a huge influx of Fae and Angels, fallen or otherwise, at the moment. A lot of books about Wares are also seemingly more about shifters, because some don't relate to the Lunar cycle at all, but that's all right, because it's taking a race and making it your own, I suppose. I think what is really inportant for me about a race is their social infostructure within the context of my world, if indeed, they have one. This creates a lot of the plot and drama. So, things like Vampires, wares, fae, they have a firm basis in which to have heirarchy, rules, etc.

This discussion has made me realize that I am casting off some of my rarer but more interesting species into the 'one offs'. I should really try to include them more, so I'm'a deffinetly work on that. So far, Red, my list is;

Vampires,
Fae - Not exactly folk lore style. I have my own story for them.
Demons - The 'currupted by Lucifer' kind. Still working on these.
Warewolves,
Neck/Nixie - Water spirits/creatures.
Poltergeists,
Ghouls - Shifting desert women-style. Grave robbers.
Night Haunts.
Deities - The main plot of the novel revolves around them. They are more so Lesser Gods, because they used to be human. They 'employ' the recently dead, hence, main plot. They're currupt, It'll be fun.

I'm also thinking about a Fate, and I have some research to do about healing, as well. Largely the species I include are manipulated from their virgin myths by myself, but some are not. Oh, and a Siren.

How about yourself?

One of the strongest themes in my books is basically the idea that Humans, in amoungst all of these strange things they do not know, are still the biggest monsters. Corah's obsessed with these criminals, these old cases. Things like Vampires, they have hunger, or others have laws to kill, but we just... Kill, and you rarely know who it'll be or why. Her Father, for example, doesn't give a damn about her and abandoned her. After finding out all of this, she get's her hopes up that he was 'protecting her' from something, or perhaps he was possessed, or something else. But no, he's just a selfish person. In a way, it's a fingers up to a lot of the 'convinient evil' plots I've read - not in any huge moralistic or artistic debate kinda' way, just because, it's fun.

But y'know, sometimes the bad guy is the bad guy and you just have to get a sledgehammer, as someone says. I don't want to make it an after school specail. :P

That's what draws me to YA as well, the themes. Themes of YA will likely stay with people a long time, like they have done with me. They cover everything though the mainstream media doesn't like to think so.

[RedMage]

Interesting list. And, what you say about the basic kind of villain--the bad guy because he is the bad guy--is true. That doesn't make it a simpler story at all. It just makes the intelligent reader who wants more, it makes them ask for more.

However, one of the things that made me start writing were the convenient plot and character and world building points. Just because a person makes their world/character/plot run this certain way doesn't mean they shouldn't have to explain it. So your point about world infrastructure is great, Luya. It doesn't have to be hugely complex or anything but, if you're actually trying to make a world, a setting for your story, then it should be a real one. I mean, there is a cause and effect for everything. Things aren't just "this way" because they are this way. Something made them be that way.

Switching back to the whole list thing and bringing up the example of my own story--I've got a secondary world where all the monsters out of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries went to when they decided they did not want to be persecuted anymore. Vampires, weres, mad scientists who wanted to explore sciences that were immoral or too out there for their societies, that sort of thing. The world was created by the druids, who love order. It was set in motion by the warlocks, who are proud and manipulate chaos. It was then held together by the witches, who maintain the balance between order and chaos and can go either way depending upon the circumstances.

You question, Luya, is making me really look at what I've got here. It feels like a lot of what I don't want. I'm trying to stay away from angels and demons (fallen/corrupted angels), gods/demi-gods, fates, elves, unicorns, and other specifically magical creatures. In the world I've created, those creatures from folk-lore, ancient mythologies, and most of the medieval myths, are said to have gone to other places, to their own worlds, when they were too heavily persecuted on earth. I've made a few concessions, the druids and warlocks being the biggest ones I can think of at the moment. But I make it make sense too. But I am worried about how I've seemed to stay with the things that I wanted to move beyond.

It just seems like a lot of UF writers are doing the same thing, though putting their characters in different situations. Perhaps that's what every genre does (and that's why it's called genre :rolleyes:) but I feel it to be much more true for UF than for other fantasy. And, that said, I can't help but ask where are those who want to break out and push the boundaries?

[Luya Sevrein]

I quite like the idea of the mad scientists and such, that's rarely done, and your new world sounds interesting. The idea of only having species from the last few centuries though seems a difficult one to pull off, because, Vampires existed before the last few centuries, in our myth and folk lore as well as physically having too in plot terms, so, I imagine, did wares. If I were you I would go for a more scientific-basis, and make the Warlocks magic some kind of advanced science, competing with the Druids more natural magics.

World building is also a favourite of mine. I have done so a lot in the fantasy novel I have been writing before shifting projects. Just because your novel is going to be set in a this world, or another world like this where not everything will need the same level of explaination doesn't mean you can skimp out on explaining the histories and infostructures of the varying species and organizations. You're right there!

[RedMage]

I quite like the idea of the mad scientists and such, that's rarely done, and your new world sounds interesting. The idea of only having species from the last few centuries though seems a difficult one to pull off, because, Vampires existed before the last few centuries, in our myth and folk lore as well as physically having too in plot terms, so, I imagine, did wares. If I were you I would go for a more scientific-basis, and make the Warlocks magic some kind of advanced science, competing with the Druids more natural magics.

I've got the whole existence before 1800 thing taken care of :D I wanted my world to have been around for a couple of hundred years. To let it grow and develop apart from earth and its cultures and societies while, at the same time, still accessible to earth and everything about it. So, really, the druids, warlocks and witches created the world, maybe, around 1,000 AD. They left earth for it, as did all the other creatures like vampires and weres, ghouls and such. (good idea with the ghouls! thanks.) Some came later, some went back to earth, some never left earth. The scientists are more in the first category, though not totally. Characters that we know of in our world, like Dracula, Dr. Frankenstein and his monster, Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde, the individuals of the Salem Witch Trials (some of whom, in my story, were real witches in my story-sense) all fit into the second and third categories of went back to earth and never left.

So yeah, these creatures have all been around for awhile. Their society is developed. City-states face internal conflicts, there are social uprisings for greater political freedoms and power for certain groups, there are all sorts of things. The other night I was working on having a witch living on earth with a earth guy, explain to the guy the socio-political machinations of her world. A lot of people are going to be attacking her home town on the other world because she led a revolt there and changed a whole lot of things and, what she changed, directly influences a city which is, basically, the last hold-out against the biggest threat to majority of the peoples and nations in their world. (It's a if-we-let-this-nation-go-communist-then-it's-the-end-of-western-civilization-and-therefore-we-must get-involved! sort of thing.)

Anyhow, I've come up with a few different storylines, mostly standalones that will be novellas. But almost all of them are about characters that are either witches, weres, or druids. And in the biggest one (which I'm working on now) vampires are heavily involved. I feel my plots are different enough to the genre to not make me sick and call them the same stuff. But the use of the same species is definitely getting to me. Lol, perhaps I should try to think of some stories for the lesser, non-world creating, those-in-power species/peoples?

[Laer Carroll]

Luya, Kat has done her usual excellent job of mapping out the overall Young Adult territory. But in a short essay no one can give the entire territory, just as no one map no matter how detailed can give you the entire map of even one state. She's shown the major road maps, but only has hit the high points, the mountains and hills.

But YA is a complex field, just as complex perhaps as the Adult field. There are valleys, some quite hidden. There are plains. There are towns and cities and lonely farmsteads, many cultures and subcultures.

It is useful to know the overall picture. But MOST IMPORTANT is your small personal space. What are your fears, some of which you share with many people, some of which are known to you and a few others? What so scares you that your urinary tract burns with the urge to pee? What are your joys, which lift your heart in your breast and makes your insides warm with happiness? What are your quiet contentments, the little subtle pleasures that make a single day infinitely long and timeless?

These are the materials for your stories, some short, some long. Borrow freely from others. It is your right and duty as a writer, but make them yours not some shabby imitation. Explore yourself, which is part of the mantra “write what you know.” You will find you are subtler and deeper than even you suspect.

Do this and you will NEVER lack for material. For amazing and impossible as it seems, you are infinite.