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algernoninc
May 15th, 2012, 11:59 AM
Ygritte has a funny accent (Scottish?) that I really love, but she overdid it a little in taunting poor Jon. It was a good laugh, but I wish Jon would make a comeback or two and not be such a wet towel.

Tyrion took a step back in this episode, a more subdued presence than usual. It is good to see the rest of the cast take center stage, and I hope at the next Golden Globes they get some recognition.

My favorite this episode is Jayme : not so much for the first scene, but for when he tries to provoke Catelyn to kill him. He doesn't have much to do this season, but I have high hopes he will play right the scenes from the next book.

KatG
May 15th, 2012, 10:32 PM
This was another set-up episode, and so sort of dragged things out on all fronts. However, the scenes individually did very well and the changes to the Qarth storyline have certainly been dramatic but interesting. Show Jon could be a little less glowery at this point, though.


I just don't know why she gets such a bad time from many posters here and elsewhere.

Because she doesn't kick butt, so they don't like her as much. They like Arya, Osha and Ygritte because they do. But I thought she did the scene very well. What I like about Danys is that she is not always certain; she tries to think it out. There was the feel, though, of lets get to the House of the Undying already. (Sometimes having read the books is a real disadvantage.) Everything feels stretched out. But the changes they've added -- to the Jaime-Cat storyline, to Danys' -- I think added a nice dose of juice.

Luya Sevrein
May 16th, 2012, 07:53 AM
Chicks with swords get all the love, because people assume they are strong automatically, and do not think of them as weak-willed, rude, ruthless, sexual exploitation for kicks OR killers, who sort out all their problems that way. They just drool. Am I the only one who thinks Arya (more so in the books, but a little in the series) is a rude, merciless, selfish, arrogant git? I don't get all these scenes saying how amazing clever she is. She is not. She has no tact. Sansa, for all her bad press, could handle herself ten times better at court than Arya. She is smart in a different way; yet no, they have to give her more and more and more because chicks dig tomboys.

AuntiePam
May 16th, 2012, 11:03 AM
You make a good point about Arya. She didn't seem to feel any responsibility for all the hangings, which wouldn't have happened if she hadn't taken the letter -- and what was she going to do with it anyway?

I cut her a lot of slack because she's so young. She's doing what she's been taught. While Sansa was being taught courtly manners and learning how to hide her feelings, Arya was being taught swordplay and learning basic survival.

Werthead
May 16th, 2012, 12:38 PM
She didn't seem to feel any responsibility for all the hangings, which wouldn't have happened if she hadn't taken the letter

All the people being hanged were Lannister soldiers (somewhat oddly; why aren't the servants under suspicion?), and thus to Arya's mind the enemy and thus justified. Arya's also likely recalling the fact that Lannister soldiers (although not the same ones) killed Syrio and the Stark retainers and guards at King's Landing.

If innocents were being killed, she'd probably have more of a reaction. Remember that she blamed herself by Mycah's death in Season 1 when talking about it with her father.


Am I the only one who thinks Arya (more so in the books, but a little in the series) is a rude, merciless, selfish, arrogant git?

Arya is starting to suffer from a form of PTSD at this point in the story (she certainly was in the books, and it gets worse), which given her age and everything she's been through is not surprising. I'm actually bemused when people don't seem to cotton onto the fact that Arya is well down the path to becoming a sociopath by the fourth and fifth books.

Luya Sevrein
May 17th, 2012, 06:41 AM
Arya is starting to suffer from a form of PTSD at this point in the story (she certainly was in the books, and it gets worse), which given her age and everything she's been through is not surprising. I'm actually bemused when people don't seem to cotton onto the fact that Arya is well down the path to becoming a sociopath by the fourth and fifth books.

And because I think she is rude and arrogant I do not cotton onto this fact? I do agree, that, at least by the time she's stabbing the tickler screaming his phrases at him, Arya has completely lost it, but there's plenty of material before that for me to have made up my mind from. Neither do I think it's wrong for her to BE arrogant or rude, she was raised noble. Though it tends to be noble people she is rude too, not common. :P

I also think she has something of her old self left, which she can not let go of when she goes to the House of Black and White. Even when inducted fully, it was through a trick and not through being ready.

I just think her treatment, in comparrison to Sansa's, is pathetic. They both saw their father die, and while Arya had to learn to survive but at least had friends around her for some of that journey, Sansa was left alone with someone she once loved and the realization of what a monster they are, beatings, manipulation, creepy as anything Petyr, Sandor, who though I love him is also kind of unhealthy for her. Terrible things happen to both girls, and the other Stark kids, who at least didn't have to see their father die in person, yet Arya get's praise and Sansa gets hate, on a large scale. I think Sansa has far more will for all of Arya's skill.

And I thought the hangings were just... everyone? A prisoner is less likely to be an assassin though, I guess, without someone noticing.

Maisie is doing an amazing job though. I do like Sophie, but Maisie is one of the best actors in the bunch.

DC1985
May 17th, 2012, 12:04 PM
Chicks with swords get all the love, because people assume they are strong automatically, and do not think of them as weak-willed, rude, ruthless, sexual exploitation for kicks OR killers, who sort out all their problems that way. They just drool. Am I the only one who thinks Arya (more so in the books, but a little in the series) is a rude, merciless, selfish, arrogant git? I don't get all these scenes saying how amazing clever she is. She is not. She has no tact. Sansa, for all her bad press, could handle herself ten times better at court than Arya. She is smart in a different way; yet no, they have to give her more and more and more because chicks dig tomboys.

Strange words for someone who started a thread about how Bronn is their favourite character.

With honourable mentions to Tywin, Sandor and yes Jaqen.

Luya Sevrein
May 17th, 2012, 12:30 PM
Strange words for someone who started a thread about how Bronn is their favourite character.

With honourable mentions to Tywin, Sandor and yes Jaqen.

But those characters are accepted for those flaws, they take the art of being a little sarcy, a little bit of a git, and making it funny or workable. I've never seen anyone call Arya out for speaking to someone rudely, or even mention it. I wouldn't mind if it was accepted. I'm fed up of overlooking everything a female character does well or badly because someone puts a sword in their hand. /sigh

Anyways, getting off topic now, so back on.

KatG
May 17th, 2012, 06:29 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Arya (more so in the books, but a little in the series) is a rude, merciless, selfish, arrogant git?

No, I don't see her that way. Arya starts out loyal, loving toward her family, fierce, frustrated and fighting with her mother over social roles, uncertain, brave and bucking convention, willing to speak out for others considered lower than her, a loud mouth in general, and with her father's rigid sense of justice. She's not exceptionally smart, but she's intuitive, good at reading people, understands politics and is reasonably intelligent. She's a little bit rude and selfish, but no more than the boys. She's impulsive and sometimes thoughtless. What arrogance she has is mostly bluster against the constraints being placed on her as a girl, and because Cersei attacks her and her family on the trip down to King's Landing. She is capable of feeling remorse and guilt. She feels these over Mycah, over the boy she stabbed to get away and decisions she felt she had to make to survive.

After Ned's death, Arya is traumatized and she becomes more and more traumatized as things progress and horrible things happen to her and people she knows -- murder, torture, starvation, abuse, etc. Her fierceness becomes more savage, guilt and remorse smushed down. Her code of justice from her father is abandoned for a belief in revenge that helps her find the will to survive -- but not entirely as when she frees the three men from the prison wagon. She takes risks for others, but is much more careful in speech. She learns how to be a spy and a prisoner. She learns how to be a killer. She is surrounded most of the time by psychotics who can rape and kill her at any time. She loses more and more of her identity, which is why she repeats the list to remind herself of who she is, and she is unstable. Her warg powers are kicking in sporadically and further confuse her at first. She fully understands as a child in a war zone what she did not as a protected noble's child -- that she is helpless and it terrifies her. It might kill her. So she seeks to repress it.

When she gets to Bravos and is trying to train with the Nameless Men, she is taught to have no emotion -- no guilt, remorse or sense of revenge, no exhaustion or sense of deprivation and suffering, to be only a tool of the god. She is being stripped of her identity. Arya can't quite handle that and so brings the deserter's death as a stand-in for all that has been done to her. So they take her sight to strip that identity further away, make her rely on a whole other life. She does this, she learns the new skills, but because of her warg powers, she gets to cheat. So she's progressing as a magical assassin of no emotion, no fixed gender or face or identity, but she's got this little bit of traumatized Stark in the corner. So that's going to be interesting.

Ultimately, Arya is becoming a classic black knight character -- one who fights for the "good" side and decent motives some of the time, but who pursues ruthless methods and dark emotions to achieve goals. Consequently, various of the prophecy symbols probably apply to her.

Sansa started out also loyal to her family and caring about them. She has some of her father's sense of justice, though she also has more of a belief in privilege. She had been trained in court ways, but she has also been stuck up in the sticks in the North and is inexperienced and naive, not as good at reading people. She has been indulged and protected, and is arrogant and self-centered. She wants a fairy tale future and finds it difficult to conceive that bad things might happen to her because bad things never have. She has been taught to accept her status as a female. She's not stupid, but she's not street smart either. She feels guilt and remorse but she is also impulsive and tends to try to banish uncomfortable feelings.

When she comes to King's Landing, she finds out that even though she's going to be the king's bride, she is considered a rube, a neophyte and inferior. She doesn't fit in, she makes mistakes, she becomes much less confident. She encounters things she never has before that makes her start to question the world around her. She does not do as well as she wants to. The Hound, the queen, and others make her uneasy. Joffrey starts to scare her, so she tries to pretend that part's not real.

Then everything and everyone she loves is ripped away from her. She has tremendous guilt and remorse over mistakes she's made and the trust she placed in the wrong people. Bad thing after bad thing happens to her, further traumatizing her and making her numb and cautious. She is surrounded by psychotics who can rape and kill her at any time. She learns how to be a spy and a prisoner. She learns new skills to survive. She is much more constrained than Arya, and rather than lose her identity, it is burned into her skull as a scarlet A. She remembers the lessons taught to her by people she used to take for granted -- her mother, her father, her nurse -- and uses them to survive. She goes from hoping to broker a deal with her captors to concentrating on survival and working for the future of her family. She risks herself to help others, but is careful in speech. Her wolf is dead so her warg powers are muted but she is beginning to see magic in the world. She has to deal with the sexual interest and threat of various men, and further trauma from that.

Then Littlefinger takes her and she is further traumatized as a slave. Her identity is now stripped away and she is given another. However, she now has more hope of escape, of regaining herself if she watches and waits. She chooses an identity -- she becomes more like her mother. But she also can only afford so much compassion, bravery and resolution as a prisoner whose captor is a psychopath.

So there are many similarities between the two girls as Stark sisters and in their experiences, but there are also profound differences. Both of them go through way more trauma than their brothers. Arya's fierceness and her greater opportunity to act against threats make her more popular with a lot of people. She is more like the idea people have of maleness and the more a character is like the idea of maleness, the more that character will be liked because it's the default. We also like sarcastic, screw you rejoinders as part of that idea of maleness (trash talking.) Arya can do more of that in her situation than Sansa can.

I enjoy both of them. I think Arya will probably come to a more tragic end. I'm kind of curious to see if the show will change their arcs from the books. I hope they don't too much.

Palfrey
May 17th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Arya (more so in the books, but a little in the series) is a rude, merciless, selfish, arrogant git?

I don't think she's selfish, and all tweens/teenagers are arrogant. She does become a merciless killer, but I'm not sure the term "sociopath" as we understand it is applicable in her society.