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kged
May 29th, 2012, 07:52 PM
...bloody Hell.

KatG
May 29th, 2012, 08:22 PM
I think you missed my point there, Kat, or I didn't make it well.

In the books you can see why she does not go with him. He can not promise he won't hurt her and in fact holds a knife to her throat. He is drunk, sobbing, crazed, unstable, and doesn't put the idea across so kindly or mention Winterfell specifically. In this re-write he's basically offering to be her savoir and it makes her look like an idiot for not going.

You're missing my point back, which is that the scene in the series isn't about the Hound now, it's about Sansa. They wanted to do the symbolism of her leaving childhood behind. If they'd had him sobbing and holding a knife to her throat, like a crazy man, then stomping off while she curled up crying in his cloak, then she would have been simply a scared girl. Them having an adult conversation and her standing up to him, holding the doll and then letting it drop, let them present her as an adult who finds her strength. Martin decided that was the important thing to emphasize in the scene. It was still logical that she not go with him because she does know that he's violent and unstable, that he might not hurt her but getting to Winterfell is unlikely. Stannis is her better bet at the time.

As for the Hound, they've made a point on the show of showing that he refuses to actually wear the white cloak, so having him wearing it in that scene wouldn't make much sense. I don't think it's awful to add a few more layers to the Hound, rather than just having him be an unstable drunk. It can be hard when a scene plays out differently than what we created in our heads from Martin's words. I often get a little jar when there's lines I remember mixed with stuff I don't. Within the bounds of the narrative they are making on the show, I think most viewers will like the scene, but I can understand that it went emotionally to a place you didn't find satisfying. I did like the doll bit, though, not that it was subtle.

Luya Sevrein
May 30th, 2012, 11:47 AM
Just because someone is an unstable drunk in one scene does not mean that is all there is. The guy has a tonne of layers all ready, and I think this is a fine way to go. They're wanting to show a bit of a softer, rational side, that's fine. I understand the scene. I understand why the rewrite happened. It showed Sansa's growing very well.

But in terms of actual content, it came across not making sense at all to me.

teahupoo
May 30th, 2012, 01:41 PM
In this re-write he's basically offering to be her savoir and it makes her look like an idiot for not going.



Sansa is an Idiot, so it works perfect.

kged
May 30th, 2012, 02:10 PM
Nonsense! Sansa was an innocent, but those days are just as far behind her as they could possibly be. Now she is very sharp indeed. Did you not see the scene where she asked Joffrey about being in the vanguard? She may have been a slow starter but this girl can now play the verbal games of the court beautifully. I don't think the meathead boy-king even knew she was making a fool of him.

teahupoo
May 30th, 2012, 03:32 PM
SPOILER FOR NEXT BOOK BELOW!!!!!!!

Yes, her stupidity is so far behind her that in the near future this genius will place her future into the hands of a drunk in shining motley.

Luya Sevrein
May 30th, 2012, 03:36 PM
Exactly!

They're saying 'Look how adult she is, with all her childish desires and dreams gone. She realizes that the cruelist looking man has been the kindest to her, and now they trust one another.' Yet, no, she's staying put.

But then she's going to go with... Dontos?

Luckily, it seems as if they're giving all of Sandor's lines to Petyr, because that's not a totally creepy relasionship. So maybe it'll be more focussed on him. -shrug-

Werthead
May 30th, 2012, 03:37 PM
In this re-write he's basically offering to be her savoir and it makes her look like an idiot for not going.

There is no logical reason for Sansa to accept his offer. Okay, in the books he was clearly way more off his trolley, but even in the TV show he's standing there covered in blood and then rips her family (even her unborn future children) to pieces in front of her for several minutes. He's clearly not firing on all cylinders and has recently already betrayed Sansa's trust (by telling Cersei about her starting to menstruate).

Coupled with that, Stannis is winning the battle and Sansa believes she can cut a better deal with him (and in the books she is right, as Stannis promises to return Cat's daughters to her, although I believe in the TV show this line was cut from the parley). Plus running off through the mud as a fugitive through a warzone with the threat of death, murder and rape with an unreliable, clearly slightly-unhinged pyrophobe for company is not exactly a safe bet either. At least Arya had a large force of men on official business with her and was both armed and trained to use her weapon (even if she never really got the chance in the end).


Yes, her stupidity is so far behind her that in the near future this genius will place her future into the hands of a drunk in shining motley.

With the Lannisters victorious and completely unbeatable thanks to their Tyrell alliance, yes, it makes sense that at a later stage, with much less hope of the war being resolved diplomatically or by Stannis or the Starks winning militarily, Sansa would make a much more desperate throw of the dice than what the Hound offered her (and even then note that Dontos is helping her escape by ship, with much less risk involved than traversing a warzone). Not to mention the whole thing about being disgusted by Tyrion and fearing that he would insist that they consummate the marriage at any time.

teahupoo
May 30th, 2012, 03:47 PM
I'm not saying all of it doesn't make sense. I'm just saying that Sansa is a world class fool. I think she is one of Georges best written and most believable characters. Far more believable than Arya.

Luya Sevrein
May 30th, 2012, 03:53 PM
I don't think she's a fool. Fools do not act the way she does - Fools act like Arya, and insult the Prince to his mother and father, and lack tact, and do things that get them hurt and killed. Even though that randomly changes with little character development in this season.

She's just rash, a bit of an idealist. You can be intellegant and dependant on all the wrong things. People generalize quite a lot when it comes to being a 'fool', or 'stupid'. There are a thousand ways to be stupid.

I do agree that she is more believable than Arya, though, and some other characters. I did like Arya until her assassin-training. I've read too many stories full of assassins and her skill-set, age, emotional instability, ability to magically keep surviving in such a realistic world pushes my suspension of belief slightly in a way I am not used too within Martin's universe.