[ezchaos]

I tried reading LFB years ago and felt the same way. I think I put the book down after a few chapters. However, this time around I really enjoyed it.

[Crysania]

Yeah, it's amazing in the end WHO 'gets it' and WHO does not. I think you have to have dealt with a bit of pain yourself to get it. I think you have to have dealt or at least empathize with exclusion, cruelty, lonliness, bitterness, a fall from grace...to a certain extent. That's what Covenant's dealing with essentially... a fall from grace. Golden Boy. He has had EVERYTHING go right for him. Beautiful wife and kid, money, his art turns lucrative and far-reaching... EVERYTHING. Then GONE. All gone... and in a nasty, insidious way he CAN NOT control. If you don't have an inkling of how that can feel... you won't get into TC's mind and understand it. I was 13 when I first read the books. And 7th grade being the worst year EVER in my school career... well, I was able to totally got into his head and into the desparate nature of the story. The rape is really the first test... if you can hack it through that, you will be redeemed in the end. If you can't, fine, you can't. It wasn't PRE-MEDITATED, people! My God! Can you IMAGINE what must be going on in your HEAD to commit a crime like that? Can you imagine the HURT, beat-up, mangled SOUL that is brought to commit that kind of act? THAT is TC.

One other thing... if you hate the quality of self-righteousness the way I do...well, there are times I just felt like slapping the happy villagers. I mean, so neat and compact is their life - caught up in stone or wood -- living their daily lives in health... if you have a bitterness in you... this behavior only serves to piss you off even more. Why? Because it's denied you! YOU can't have this happy-go-lucky lifestyle. Or maybe you did have it for a time and it all went to hell. So you have a PARADOX -- another major theme of the series -- you want to protect these people, you admire these people at the same time they piss you off because you think they're clueless and you're jealous. Do you see how flippin' complicated this story is?????

Now I would also like to mention some of the imagery in the book. If you haven't read the whole thing, stop reading this.

I can't draw. But since I was 13, I have been trying to draw images that have burned in my mind from Covenant. In LFB, we've got this AMAZING display in Andelain -- the dance of the Wraiths. Something to finally bring Covenant out of his hate for just a moment.... beautiful!!!! And what happens??? It's DESTROYED. Just like his LIFE. Beauty is DESTORYED.

Okay, also Revelstone... I'd give my EYE tooth to see that IRL. What an amazing image... coming up the river to Revelstone...

My personal favorite... the rearing of the Ranyhyn! How beautiful. What a statement! Most people if they're LUCKY, get one or two ranyhyn... he gets ALL of them. They fear him. And sense in him a HOPE. Amazing imagery at sunset with the horses dancing and galloping in circles around him then finally rearing. Wow...

I adore this series. With my whole heart and soul...

[saintjon]

Is it just me, or is that a really hard post to follow?

I think you pretty much said it all there Crysania!

[Nimea]

Mmh, about Crysania's post . . . well . . .

Part of the skill of an author is to show the reader things he might not know, might not imagine under normal circumstances. So, you generally need not to really know what the character lives through out of experience - at least that's what I think.
Aaand, I might be wrong, but everyone has times in his life when he/she feels alone etc. - especially through the teenage years - but how many people are outcasts like TC? How many people manage to get so high and fall from grace without doing anything wrong?
I don't really agree with your arguments here, Crysania.

To not get into a book/character has a lot of reasons. You don't like the writing style, you don't want to have such a 'negative' hero, you just don't like the characters, the images the writer wants to create are just not your taste . . . But there we are again. Why do people like some books, while others hate them or just don't care. Fortunately that is not the topic here.

And the rape? Sure, he did not plan to rape Lena - and? I understand why it happend, how the story led there, I understand what his problems are . . . but that is never anything that makes me feel 'comfortable' with some crime like that. I just can't shrug it away and say it is okay because he has such a hurt, beat-up soul.
But I have only 50 pages left to read and so I found a wonderful scene in which TC gets some of my sympathy back - when he remembers what he has done to Lena and he orders the Ranyhyn to go to her for that is what she always dreamed of. I waited for this kind of remorse, soul shaking and shocking for him.

About the inhabitants of the Land: well, I don't think that I would get on with them well either - because I am mixed up too much, too. But also because I would be jealous. Hey, they understand a lot more about the world. They can live with the Oath of Peace, they live in a healthy world and they understand that they have to preserve the Land. Wow!
So, yeah, I agree: "flippin' complicated" story! And that makes it very very fascinating.


Something else just came to my mind: what kind of man used TC to be before the leprosy?
Would I have liked him? What character traits did he own before his illness, and which did he keep?

:)

[saintjon]

That's said in his opinion of his old books. He despises the man he was before leprosy, because he thought him naive.

Basically, I think pre-leper Covenant would just be a bit of an aloof, but friendly, optimistic kind of guy.

[Rob B]

Sure, he did not plan to rape Lena - and? I understand why it happend, how the story led there, I understand what his problems are . . . but that is never anything that makes me feel 'comfortable' with some crime like that. I just can't shrug it away and say it is okay because he has such a hurt, beat-up soul. From my point of view, I don't think the reader is ever supposed to feel comfortable with TC, especially after the rape scene. There is some shock value to the scene, but it is an important and crucial scene. It is the one time when TC is in the Land and he lost control and the results are far reaching both in the world of the Land and to TC's thoughts of himself. By no means is it "okay" that TC did what he did.

The fact that Donaldson has created such an insufferable prick of a character by the time we are with him on his journeys, and still accomplishes what he did in terms of keeping many readers attached to the book and the other characters, AND Covenant, demonstrates his mastery in writing.

I'll agree with the attitude of some people in the Land, especially in their reverence of TC. Then again, he is their equivalent of Christ, or a Christ-type figure. Hard to imagine people not bowing down to the Saviour if he/she suddenly appeared.

Donaldson invested a great deal of effort in creating the Land, its history and its people. The Giants, and the ramblings on history, are probably my favorite group.

[Eventine]

I don't think the reader is ever supposed to feel comfortable with TC

Exactly. And there are two scenes which really point this out for me.
One is where TC is behaving in a terrible fashion towards Bannor, attacking him over his vows, and then proceeding to apologise.

The other is after the battle at Soaring Woodhelven, where he abuses Foamfollower after the fight.
That scene really made me realise the bitterness of this man - Foamfollower spends his whole time being nice to Covenant and attempting to befriend him, and TC's first instinct is to lash out at him. Even worse though is the fact that TC realises he does this as a defence mechanism, and feels remorse, yet does it again and again. He does this because the alternative is actually feeling something, and lepers aren't allowed to do that.

Covenant's leprosy isn't just a disease that prevents physical feeling, it also requires TC to stop feeling emotionally too. I wonder if this is true for all leprosy victims (who are long term survivors) or just this character?

[Crysania]

I wondered/wonder that as well Eventine.

And yes, I too was going to reply you SHOULD NOT feel comfortable with the rape scene. But you guys said exactly what I would say in response to that.

Also, I hope I wasn't misinterpreted. I LOVE the people of The Land. That's why when I wrote what I wrote I added in the part of that in the end, he WANTS to protect them and keep them the way they are and keep them from harm. But when he first comes face to face with them... that kind of devotion can because of his circumstances become too much to deal with and, well, a bit annoying. Anyway, I do think and I'll always think that people either get it or they don't and it's because of what they've experienced in their life. If you think I'm wrong, if you think you can prove me wrong, that's fine. You won't change my mind. I'm not saying it's BAD. I'm just saying it's interesting that that's the way it is, IMO.

It's kinda like... hmm... there's your Letterman people and your Leno people. Hahahaha!!! I'm the former, happily.

And I do hope the rest of you continue to read because I think he MORE than redeems himself at the end.

Anyway, blah blah.. I'm just so thrilled that after all these years to be able to come here and discuss this book and author with others.

Thanks,
Mhoram- mate

Hahahahah!!!!!!

[velvet hammer]

Thanks for all of the encouragement. I continue to slog away at this story and I've reached chapter 16. (I'm hard pressed to think of another book that has taken this long to read.) Whine whine moan moan :D

To lend something constructive to the discussion... it's interesting to me that the only time that the reader gets the actual thoughts and experiences of a character besides Covenant is during the rape. The one time, thus far, that Covenant actually does something really bad and we're not with him during the act.

[Hereford Eye]

Originally posted by Crysania

So you have a PARADOX -- another major theme of the series -- you want to protect these people, you admire these people at the same time they piss you off because you think they're clueless and you're jealous. ?????

I think you said that better than Donaldson does but it still leaves me frustrated. These folks were living in times that just came out of the desecration. The land isn't totally healed; there's still more than enough bad stuff happening. There is still the problem of evil in the world.
Why is that not one of them attempts to understand what drives TC? They can't "see" him so they don't try.
I appreciate the fact it is TC's story, but........