[Sammie]

Originally posted by Ladijen
Ezchaos said, "My one burning question about Bas-Lag and New Crobuzon is where are they located. Is Bas-Lag our furture Earth, or some other planet? Maybe CM will never answer this, but I'm just too nosy and analytical to let it sit."

I wondered this, too. I have not read any of Mieville's other novels so maybe this question is answered there? I thought that it might be another planet, colonized by humans in the past but already containing several sentient species. The reason that I think that it probably isn't earth is the presence of the "ribs" within the city. Am sticking to my guns on this one...whether or not Mieville intended it to be, this COULD be Earth. I think it is. There was nothing in that book that i couldn't explain with the 'future earth' thing....to me, Perdido is scifi. About to read The Scar, so i may be about to be disillusioned on that one...we shall see...:)

Having said that, i reckon Mieville's left it ambiguous deliberately. Bet even he hasn't quite made his mind up on that score...

[Hereford Eye]

Sammie: Everything but the Weaver and the Demons. How do you fit them into your sci-fi thesis?

[Sammie]

Daemons..........gimme a minute.....i DID have an explanation when i read it.

Weaver is just super-evolved being. *shrug* Head has no prob getting round that :).

[Nimea]

I would not really call it pure SciFi.
To me it was more like a steampunk feeling.

And anyone familiar with Shadowrun? *kicher* Well, not that it really is like PSS but it has cyberware, magic and beasts in it. And big sprawls and and and . . .

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by MrKip
But all the things that Isaac did were like a 'guilt payment'... he just felt he had to live with that guilt as due for his mistake.
Running away from Yag was a way of not judging him in Isaac's mind.

I guess I have to disagree. I think that everything Issac did, he did for his own benefit. He was motivated by his own wants and needs and ignored everyone else. He is not classically evil, because he has fooled himself by dressing up and rationalizing all his choices. He feels that he is acting with the best intent, but the results don't support that. He gets off almost scott-free and leaves a wake of destruction and devastation.

It starts with Lin, his secret love. They are only together with her friends, the artists and activists. She is a non-person in his world. He may have even chosen her as his GF because she was so easy to manipulate. The leftover guilt and conflict of her religious upbrigning, and her rejection of it means she already feels bad and dirty about their relationship -- he simply exploits it with his tales of official disapproval impacting his work.

He doesn't care about the winged-things: what he does to them, how he gets them. Even if theft and murder are the result it is ok, just don't let him get his hands dirty.

He doesn't care about the little creature who procures them.. I forget his name. And when he comes around for help and to warn Issac he throws him out to face it alone, because Issac and his life are more important than the creature and his family.

I seem to remember there is a man in a tavern, who he goes to for help or advice, and I think he ends up suffering or dying for it. Also Isaac was somehow involved in the strike in the water canals and then left them to their fate. I may be mistaken about these two items, it was a while ago that I read the book.

He hates and resents his employer at the University, so it is ok to cheat, steal and manipulate him.

He forces his two lab mates to live with his menagerie, even when they complain. He never lets them in about the danger until it is too late, and so he is responsible for what happens to one of them (is that Andrej?).

He doesn't care that the cleaner may have become sentient, or that the machine in the dump is. He decides to use them in a way that will probably kill them, all without their knowledge or consent.

He leaves Lin to her fate when he finds that she has been kidnapped, because he will probably fail in the resuce. But it is not whether he will fail or not that is important, but rather that he try since he supposedly loves her.

He takes the word of a total stranger about Yag, after all they have been through, and refuses to help him regain flight, thereby judging while piously saying he isn't.

To me one of the themes of the book is: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Hereford Eye
IMO, it was a comment on redemption. Yag could not be redeemed without assuming a new life. Going back to his old life, flying, et al, would have trivialized his crime and made repentance unimportant. But as he learned through the story, being part of something greater than himself was the means to the redemption he discovered he needed. I found his acceptance of that fact and his new life as a "man" the central theme in the book and not depressing at all.

I guess I see Yag as rejecting the idea of redemption/martyrdom by his choice of living as a man. Rather than live as a walking poster for his sin, his responsiblity for it, and his attempts at redemption, he chose to become something which would never notice either the sin, or his perpetual lack as a Garruda.

He chose to become a man, where his past would be unimportant because humans don't fly. So his lack would never need to be known, or commented on or dealt with in any way. If he wandered around uncovered humans might think he was a human criminal of some kind, a product of remaking, but not a Garruda sentenced in the Garruda system for a his real crime. If he went covered up then he would simply be another odd human in a world of odd humans.

I think he was rejecting Garruda society and their judgement of him. As I said earlier he is a christ-like figure to me, but I see him as a christ that after crucifixtion, says thanks but no thanks to the whole diety, martyr bit, and goes off to live a life of his own choosing, not one programmed by his situation. I think he does accept responsibility, because he understands that he can't fly because of what he did, but he refuses to let it define the rest of his life.

[MrKip]

FircusFan,
I would be inclined to disagree that Isaac got off scott free. The woman (ant?) that he loves is left insane, one of his friends and co-workers is killed by his mistake, he is forced to judge someone he has become close to for a crime he abhors and he is exiled from the city he grew up in.
As to his charges:
1. It's Lin who doesn't mind her relationship being out in the open and seems quite proud of it. Isaac wants to keep it a secret (the worst he can be accused of is wanting social acceptance). His reaction to her condition would lead me to believe he loves her.

2.The Wyrmen provide the same service for everyone and when he turfs his Wyrman (is it tea-for-two?) out he has just had to deal with the paralysis of his friend. If that were me I would want what is essentially a courior out of my house while I delt with that.

3. I think the man in the tavern you mean is Lemuel Pigeon. His motivation all the way through the book is money and Isaac never forces him to do something Lemuel does not want to.

4. He hates his employer but he never actually harms him (until it becomes clearer the role he plays in the grand scheme). He just nicks his equipment every now and then, helps him in his research, considers it a blow for the revolution and then gives it back again. I know people who treat there bosses worse. ;)

5. He apologises for causing all the trouble in the lab and conters that sometimes it is difficult to live with his colleagues. Also if you where about to make one of the biggest break through in scientific history, you would be rather distracted.

6. He seems to want to help the Construct Council until it becomes apparant that they are a big a threat as the slake-moths if not more if they get there hands on the crisis machine.

7. Lemuel persuedes him not to rescue Lin because she is already dead (the fact that she isn't, no one could have predicted).

8. I've already talked about the whole judging gig earlier on.

Phew, sorry if I went on a bit but just throwing my tuppence worth in.

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by MrKip
FircusFan,
I would be inclined to disagree that Isaac got off scott free. The woman (ant?) that he loves is left insane, one of his friends and co-workers is killed by his mistake, he is forced to judge someone he has become close to for a crime he abhors and he is exiled from the city he grew up in.
{snip}

Phew, sorry if I went on a bit but just throwing my tuppence worth in.

No problem, we just happen to diagree. I think the consequences you list are simply crocidile tears on his part. Here today, and gone tomorrow as he moves onto his next set of victims. The result of all this for Isaac: He is still free, he is not physically harmed, and his mind is still intact. He got off scott free.


While he may in fact just use the services of a lot of people who are already behaving badly for money, you can't roll in the gutter without being coated with the mud. And if you choose to inhabit the gutter then its a bit silly to whine and be surprised about the results at the end.

I still see him as Judas, betraying everyone he touches.

[FicusFan]

One of the items in the book that hasn't been talked about much is the remaking of criminals. I had forgotten about that until we started discussing Isaac. I thought the remaking was one of the really unique things about this book. Sort of a living (unless its metal) permanent Scarlet Letter ala Hawthorne. The whole book seems to be filled with the issues of crime and punishment.

I think Mieville is a socilaist and active in local politics, and perhaps making a statement about how criminals are treated with the idea of remaking. I don't know what it is like in the UK, but in the US there is a huge stigma associated with being in prison. When they come out they can't find work or housing or a lot of basic things we take for granted. If we think they have served their debt to society, and we are trying to rehabilitate them, then why do we brand them in such a way that a good meaingful life is almost impossible to achive ? We seem caught between justice and revenge, and his remade people seem to reflect that for me.

[fluffy bunny]

just started this one a bit- but man oh man does this need trimming down a bit