[Mears]

As a male reader I thought Jones handled the romance very well indeed, it's subtle and sensitive and is firmly embedded in the story rather than a side issue. I also like the way she built the relationships between the male characters, they came across as very credible. Not just the principal characters, I really felt for Broc and Pax. I also thought Angeline, Gerta and Snowy added immensely to the Izgard elements.

Her descriptions of the horror and violence of the Harras and the effect of the main plot (don't want to give too much away here). Are equally well done, bringing a lot of balance to the book.

[Llama]

I haven't read the book and I just happened to be browsing through, but if I can make one small technical point -- you guys should really not be concerned about giving away spoilers in a book club discussion. The whole idea behind this kind of discussion is that everyone who participates has read the entire book, so that you can an honest, full-fledged debate. People who haven't finished the book probably should not participate until they do (not that they should be barred from doing so, but if they participate they should just be aware that there will be spoilers.)

[nicba]

I'm male too, and I also thought that the romance was skillfuly done. As Mears said, it was intergrated part of the story, rather than an amusing sideline. And it was not too heavy-handed, as seen in for example Joanne Bertin's 'Last Dragonlord' series (which is still a somewhat enjoyable read, though).


I was wondering about the ease with which Tessa adjusted to being in a totally alien place and time. Would it really be that possible to so immediately become part of a different world?

Yeah, as I said in my first post, that was my one and probably only complaint with this book. Not precisly the speed at which she became part of the world, nor the way she accepted the cure of her tinitus. More, it was the way her quick acceptance of the 'interdimensional-travel' or whatever it was, was described.

I would have thought that anyone would experience at least a brief moment of disorientation, of fear of hallucinations and fear of madness. Suspect trickery or some such thing. At least for a short period of time.

If only such a short period of doubt had passed and been overcome, I would have had no qualms accepting a brief recovery and a quck acceptance of the new reality. After all, J.V. Jones does tell us repeatedly that Tessa had nothing to tie her to her old world. The new world is dark and primitive and dangerous in many ways, but it also gives Tessa a lot of the things she missed in her previous life. So in a way I can understand how she came to fit in there.


I was wondering how you would classify this novel. It has some points taken from so-called high fantasy and there are some indicators that it would fall into 'swords and sorcery' or heroic fantasy category. What do you think?


I don't really know about that, I'm not good at classifying things. If I should choose, I think I would lean more towards the ''swords and sorcery' category than the high-fantasy one. High-fantasy, I think, is often more magical and mythological than the world of the Coil. There's no typical high-fantasy races in the Coil, no elfs or dwarfs. There's only men. Even the 'wizards' are only humans and their magic more based on knowledge and skill than on mystic forces, I feel. But then again, I'm not sure I know what really differentiates the sub-categories of fantasy.

[FicusFan]

I guess I am the lone voice in the wilderness. I hated this book, and if it had been the only fantasy I had ever read, I would not have tried another. I usually read books in 2-3 days and this thing took me three weeks because I kept looking for excuses to put it down.

This is a modern-day meets alternate world medieval fantasy. It is long at over 600 pages, dense, and badly in need of both originality and an editor.

I have read her trilogy the Book of Words (Baker’s Boy, Master and Fool, A Man Betrayed), and enjoyed it very much. Those books were dark, meaty, fast-paced, gripping, and even had a touch of black humor.

In BC the action doesn’t start until after page 400. The previous pages all serve to set up the story, the history of the imaginary realm, and the characters. So you can’t say they should all be loped off, but the first 400 should have been edited better and condensed down.

The one interesting and original item in the book was the use of scribes and the art of illumination. She takes illumination and makes it a magic art, which is used for both good and evil. Along the way she has one of the characters explain the details and the mechanics of the process – which I am assuming is from research into the past, rather than all made up, because her details are that good.

The story starts in the modern day world with the heroine, Tessa, a limp dishrag of a non-person, finding a golden ring which takes her into the imaginary world. I must confess that I like modern fantasy, and medieval fantasy, but not a combination of the two. Further her POV character and the first part of story remind of nothing so much as bright, bland, featureless Mercedes Lackey drivel (sorry, there may be people who like her stuff, but I loathe it). Then with her modern woman in the past JVJ takes on tones of Diana Gabaldon’s Outlander series. Not as well done of course. Her limp dishrag suddenly becomes a feisty woman.

Her male counterpart, Ravis, is of course the handsome, dark, dangerous wounded man who is always an outsider and the standard male cliché for this type of recycled story. They of course become secretly attracted to each other. Ick

There is an evil king, Izegard, who is using black magic to fuel his war effort, as he plans to conquer the whole world. Ravis, a disgraced nobleman kicked out of his home, has become a mercenary and until recently was recruiting, training and equipping Izegard’s army. He rescues Tessa, and the two join forces (for no good reason). They become hunted and race to find a way to stop Izegard before he takes the key city in his plans of domination and destruction. The country the king comes from, Garizon, is portrayed as the breeding ground of all evil, and the people are all evil, just because that’s the way it is. I hate books that have simplistic formulas: I really like shades of gray.

The story switches back and forth between the good camp, and the bad camp. In Izegard’s camp we see how he works, and what he does. We also meet those who help him, and those caught in his web and powerless to escape. While there we meet who I consider the best character in the book: Snowy, a no-good dog; a small mutt who is emotionally and psychically linked to his young mistress, Angeline. She is Izegard’s virtually kidnapped, timid, sweet-natured, clueless wife. Izegard’s scribe is responsible for changing his men into horrible monsters who will fight until they die, caring for nothing but blood and terror.

The good camp includes Tessa, Ravis, and a spoiled young nobleman, Cameron, who instantly sees the light after meeting Izegard’s monsters in battle. Tessa is a proto-scribe, she sees patterns everywhere. They hook up with Emith, the assistant to a recently deceased scribe, and he trains Tessa. Tessa hides out with Emith and his mother – two well done and interesting characters.

There is a lot of traveling, an attempt to bring the grittiness of life in the past into the story; though our feckless heroine doesn’t miss anything in her old world, not her family, or even modern plumbing – right. There are many battles, lots of blood, and male bonding – the women folk only get fought over or for.

Tessa’s characterization flip flops from dishrag to feisty – each time thinking that the other state is who she is. We meet many interesting minor characters, and the story does take off after page 400. The men fight, and Tessa paints so that together they form a team to combat the evil. The ending is canned and predictable. The whole thing is derivative and tired. I would rate this book a 3.5 out of 10. I am really disappointed in JVJ, because she can do so much better.

[nicba]

Wow, FicusFan. Good reply!

It almost, but not quite, got me to revise my high opinion of the book. I think you made many good points in your review and it certainly got me thinking.


In BC the action doesn’t start until after page 400. The previous pages all serve to set up the story, the history of the imaginary realm, and the characters. So you can’t say they should all be loped off, but the first 400 should have been edited better and condensed down.


That's a little extreme I think. Page 400 could perhaps be called the beginning of the end, i.e. the place where first begin to see our way towards a resolution, and starts to learn the true cause of the problems. Sure, the story might start a bit slow, with a gradual build-up, taking its own time to introduce the main characters.

But I actually thought of that as a strength, rather than a weakness. Instead of just having the wizard who 'summoned' Tessa meet her upon arrival and have him explain her quest at once, Tessa is left for herself to discover her own purpose. The traditional 'wise old wizard' is dead and the quest, to release the coil, is not revealed straight away but only discoverd later, gradually. I thought that was a good move on the part of the author. A bit original, even.



The one interesting and original item in the book was the use of scribes and the art of illumination. She takes illumination and makes it a magic art, which is used for both good and evil. Along the way she has one of the characters explain the details and the mechanics of the process – which I am assuming is from research into the past, rather than all made up, because her details are that good.


In that we agree. I too found the art of illumination a really interesting approach to magic.



Her male counterpart, Ravis, is of course the handsome, dark, dangerous wounded man who is always an outsider and the standard male cliché for this type of recycled story. They of course become secretly attracted to each other. Ick


He :) And everyone else just agreed that the love afair was subtle and well-done. OK, maybe it wasn't that subtle after all. In that light the characters sure sounds a bit cardboard-cut. Still, for me it worked and didn't sound so contrived when I actually read the book.


There is an evil king, Izegard, who is using black magic to fuel his war effort, as he plans to conquer the whole world. Ravis, a disgraced nobleman kicked out of his home, has become a mercenary and until recently was recruiting, training and equipping Izegard’s army. He rescues Tessa, and the two join forces (for no good reason)...


Well, Tessa do have a very good reason. One that's also pointed out in the book. She's in a very strange and probably dangerous place, and has already been attacker once. Only natural that she tries to stick to her rescuer. As for Ravis, I'll admit that his motive is a bit more murky ;)


...They become hunted and race to find a way to stop Izegard before he takes the key city in his plans of domination and destruction. The country the king comes from, Garizon, is portrayed as the breeding ground of all evil, and the people are all evil, just because that’s the way it is. I hate books that have simplistic formulas: I really like shades of gray.


In the first part of the story that did indeed seem to be the case. But, to the defense of J.V. Jones, I have to point out that it was later revealed that this wasn't true. It wasn't the kingdom of Garizon, nor even the kings of that kingdom, which were evil and which caused the wars. It was all the cause of the Coil. And even the coil wasn't evil, it was just 'doing its job,' namely creating wars.


The story switches back and forth between the good camp, and the bad camp. In Izegard’s camp we see how he works, and what he does. We also meet those who help him, and those caught in his web and powerless to escape. While there we meet who I consider the best character in the book: Snowy, a no-good dog; a small mutt who is emotionally and psychically linked to his young mistress, Angeline.


Yuck, I hated that dog! I really think that J.V. Jones over-did that 'no-good' dog thing. That was just a little bit too much for my taste. But otherwise I agree that Angeline was a good, unconventional character. So was the 'evil scribe,' which really wasn't that evil after all, but caught by his own greed for power and his emotional, if somewhat twisted, bond to his king. Wasn't the scribe one of the gray characters you asked for?


The good camp includes Tessa, Ravis, and a spoiled young nobleman, Cameron, who instantly sees the light after meeting Izegard’s monsters in battle. Tessa is a proto-scribe, she sees patterns everywhere. They hook up with Emith, the assistant to a recently deceased scribe, and he trains Tessa. Tessa hides out with Emith and his mother – two well done and interesting characters.


I agree here too. Emith and his mother was perhaps some of the best suporting characters I've read about yet. In fact I think that all the 'secondary characters' of this book are excellent, and easily outweight any cheesy-ness the main characters may suffer from.


There is a lot of traveling, an attempt to bring the grittiness of life in the past into the story; though our feckless heroine doesn’t miss anything in her old world, not her family, or even modern plumbing – right. There are many battles, lots of blood, and male bonding – the women folk only get fought over or for.


Well, I think I would have missed plumbing too :). But regarding what you said about the women only being fought over, I think that was a little unfair. Tessa fights her own battle against the enemy scribe. In a way she is really fighting the 'real' battle, the one that wins the day in the end. And Angeline, the poor witless woman, really stands up for herself and her baby in the end, when she poisons Izegard.

...The ending is canned and predictable. The whole thing is derivative and tired. I would rate this book a 3.5 out of 10...

As to the final rating of the book, it must of course remain a matter of taste. I personally have a high tolerance for what is often called unoriginality by others. As long as it is well written, I mostly don't care. I found The Barbed Coil to be just that, a well written tale. For me, a whole bunch of high-quality 'secondary characters' and a very interesting magic system was more than enough to earn this book a place on the list of 'books to be recomended.'

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by nicba
Wow, FicusFan. Good reply!

Thanks. I had a lot to get off my chest. :D


It almost, but not quite, got me to revise my high opinion of the book. I think you made many good points in your review and it certainly got me thinking.

I was not lobbying for anyone to change their mind, but posting the points of the book that stood out for me. Seeing the posts from everyone else made me see how people could like the book, but I didn't have that experience. :(

I already had the book in my collection, because I had liked her earlier books -- which I do recommend-- so the choice for the month made me finally read it. Starting in December before the results were final, or I would still be slogging through it.

I am a bit odd in that once I start a book I almost never give up, even if I hate it. I am always looking for something worthwhile. This book did have its good points, but to me it was so far below her other 3 that I am probably not rational or impartial about my feelings for it.


That's a little extreme I think. Page 400 could perhaps be called the beginning of the end, i.e. the place where first begin to see our way towards a resolution, and starts to learn the true cause of the problems. Sure, the story might start a bit slow, with a gradual build-up, taking its own time to introduce the main characters.


I feel that there is little in the way of action/resolution or forward progress in telling the actual story of a group fighting against evil, until about page 400. Writers who are really skilled manage to work the set up into the main body of the story, so you get 3 or 4 strands all going at once, and it never feels like you have a big load of plot, backstory, or description dumped on you at once.

I read a lot, I also write fiction as a hobby. So I tend to look at the mechanics and construction of how stories are told, as well as what the content is. I just found a long stretch with not much going on, to me, no suspense was building, and there was little that was interesting or mysterious or that I really cared about.



But I actually thought of that as a strength, rather than a weakness. Instead of just having the wizard who 'summoned' Tessa meet her upon arrival and have him explain her quest at once, Tessa is left for herself to discover her own purpose. (..snip...) I thought that was a good move on the part of the author. A bit original, even.

I agree that the 'wizard ploy' is overdone and tired, but leaving her on her own, especially with the 'feisty modern woman syndrome' is right out of Diana Gabaldon's Highlander series.


In that we agree. I too found the art of illumination a really interesting approach to magic.

I was more intrigued with the details of the pigments and the bindings and the preparation of the surface to be illuminated and the instruments. I always like to learn something, and those details have the ring of authenticity -- how they might have done it in the middle ages.


He :) And everyone else just agreed that the love afair was subtle and well-done. OK, maybe it wasn't that subtle after all. In that light the characters sure sounds a bit cardboard-cut. Still, for me it worked and didn't sound so contrived when I actually read the book.

It just seems to be the standard set up in the romance novels I read as a kid. Boy rescues girl, :) girl hates boy, :confused: boy plays it cool, :cool: girl begins to secretly yearn for boy :eek: . It would have perhaps seemed better to me, and maybe even subtle if I had liked the characters more. Ravis was a walking cliche but better than Tessa. I really disliked her from the start.


(…snip…) As for Ravis, I'll admit that his motive is a bit more murky ;)


That was my main objection. His character is not one that would go around picking up strays, nor would he risk himself to save her life. He seems an opportunist who is always on the make. I didn’t see an angel in the alleyway to explain his sudden change of behavior. :rolleyes:




In the first part of the story that did indeed seem to be the case. But, to the defense of J.V. Jones, I have to point out that it was later revealed that this wasn't true. It wasn't the kingdom of Garizon, nor even the kings of that kingdom, which were evil and which caused the wars. It was all the cause of the Coil. And even the coil wasn't evil, it was just 'doing its job,' namely creating wars.

Very true. But why couldn't she have worked that complexity into the story sooner ? We get a very black and white, standard story until she shows us the coil. I think the opening with the new king running naked in the woods with the coil, and the island with the monks, were all under used. They were good ideas but not developed, rather she went with something quick and simple and used the other stuff as minor decoration. She could even have had Tessa summoned by the coil itself, as it works to free itself. That would have been more original to my mind.


Yuck, I hated that dog! I really think that J.V. Jones over-did that 'no-good' dog thing. That was just a little bit too much for my taste. But otherwise I agree that Angeline was a good, unconventional character. So was the 'evil scribe,' which really wasn't that evil after all, but caught by his own greed for power and his emotional, if somewhat twisted, bond to his king. Wasn't the scribe one of the gray characters you asked for?


He was one of the only characters that I really cared about (Emith and his mother are the others), and I don't like dogs in real life (I am a cat person). I didn't think much of Angeline or the evil scribe. I thought they were standard 'victim characters’ in fantasy.

Yes the scribe was a study of shades of gray, just not very well done. I never felt that he cared about Izegard, and so was trapped at first by his concern for him. I never felt the crisis that made him pick Izegard over the other servant whom he essentially helped kill. I did get a good sense of his fear, but I didn't find his inaction at the beginning plausible. He had to have been intelligent and educated to be a scribe, yet he never thinks of a way out, or of trying to use his magic against Izegard. He never struggles to get free. Like most of the characters to me he lacks 'umph'.


I agree here too. Emith and his mother was perhaps some of the best suporting characters I've read about yet. In fact I think that all the 'secondary characters' of this book are excellent, and easily outweight any cheesy-ness the main characters may suffer from.

I did really like Emith and his mother. But I don't think the other secondary characters were all that good. Unfortunately 3 characters (Snowy, Emith, and Mom), who don't get a lot of stage time can't erase the cheesy, tired nature of the rest of the story for me.


Well, I think I would have missed plumbing too :). But regarding what you said about the women only being fought over, I think that was a little unfair. Tessa fights her own battle against the enemy scribe. In a way she is really fighting the 'real' battle, the one that wins the day in the end. And Angeline, the poor witless woman, really stands up for herself and her baby in the end, when she poisons Izegard.

Tessa is 'the modern woman' so she is expected to be different. But you're right she does fight the 'real' battle, and it seems it was unconventional for women to be scribes. But there are plenty of instances where JVJ makes clear that women can't stray out of their place. I don't want everyone to be unconventional, but since it is fantasy if you can imagine dragons and monsters, you can surely see a woman or two now and then doing something outside their traditional gender roles? Emith is a good start at showing a non-traditional male.

I disagree that Angeline stands up for herself. Poison is traditionally called a coward's weapon, and/or a woman's weapon. She never has to declare herself, and she never has to stand up for what she believes in. She just carries on as usual, pretending reality isn't happening to her, and then wanders off -- eventually killing the child herself through neglect.

If she had stood up to Izegard, or even declared that she was a worthwhile person deserving of respect and regard she might have died and the child might have died anyway, but she would have become a person rather than staying a doormat who drifts through life expecting someone else to deal with reality for her. She ends up casting Cameron as her next Prince Charming -- she has learned nothing about being responsible for herself. Whatever will she do to him, if in the future he fails to keep her happy ?


As to the final rating of the book, it must of course remain a matter of taste. I personally have a high tolerance for what is often called unoriginality by others. As long as it is well written, I mostly don't care. I found The Barbed Coil to be just that, a well written tale. For me, a whole bunch of high-quality 'secondary characters' and a very interesting magic system was more than enough to earn this book a place on the list of 'books to be recomended.'

Difference is what makes the world go round. My comments on the book are only my opinions and are not meant to apply to anyone else.

I can accept unoriginality only if there is something that grabs me, and interests me, or captures my emotions – this book did neither for me. I also think it was written much more poorly than her other 3. I will even hazard a guess that although this was published after the others she may have actually written it first. I think it has none of the skill of weaving the tale that she does so well in the trilogy.

[Lani]

I was sitting here and wondering why exactly J.V. Jones decided that Tessa should have tinnitus. It is said that tinnitus happened to her through Deveric's manipulations, but why? He could probably influence her by other means to move closer to the place required. I was wondering if J.V. Jones have some private connection with tinnitus and that is why she included it in her book, maybe for educational or enlightening purpose such as how tinnitus affects people's lives? Do you think she included it because it fit the story well or for other reasons?

[DarthV]

She probably chose tinnitus because of the way she wanted to link her disability with concentrating... ?

[Merancapeman]

Well, no offense. but what the hec k is JV Jones?

[DarthV]

My guess would be an author? ;)