[Rob B]

I guess the only real connections between Ma'elKoth and Kollberg were superficial.

To paraphrase the author himself, with Caine and Ma'elKoth were more or less opposing protagonists than GOOD GUY:) v. BAD GUY:( . which was one of the strengths of this novel.

Good point with Berne, there isn't much redeemable about him. Sure they guy commanded respect as a superb fighter but that's about it.

I thought one of Stover's strongest displayed skills in this novel was his representation of power-how he made (at least me) feel awe in his descriptions of Ma'elKoth as well as the dark power that surrounded Caine, especially as seen through Kierendal's eyes towards the end of th novel.

[kater]

Spoiler alert - cheers Shz , my bad

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Yeah but it was always kinda hard to get a handle on how they measured up, Caine too was in awe of Maelkoth but at the same time Caine in a round about way took him down, there was at the start this persona with Caine of being mortal and just scraping through but I think by the end, even with his legs lost Stover had gone away from that idea somewhat, though it came back with a vengeance in BOT.:rolleyes:

[Shehzad]

Kater, just remember to put spoilers around those parts which others might not have read yet.

I always felt through the books that Caine was overmatched physically and in magical terms when stacked against Berne. Not only was Berne a superb swordfighter and a handful as such, but with Kossal and the Buckler, he was darn-right undefeatable. It was Caine's quick wits and quicker reflexes which were his major strength and which stood him in good stead in the confrontations.

Ditto about Ma'ElKoth's "awe"-- when Caine first met him and realized what he was up against, I thought: "HOW is Stover going to pull this one off?" I think that the fall-out was very well played out, IMHO...

[kater]

I have to admit to loving the whole 'ultimate warrior' concept a lot but I think maybe it was a little ott by Stover, yes its fantasy but always there is this 'common' guy who manages to pull off the impossible and escape death so many times. Sure it was done cleverly but isn't the whole concept very much an overly used stereotype in the genre as a whole now?

[Shehzad]

Originally posted by kater
I have to admit to loving the whole 'ultimate warrior' concept a lot but I think maybe it was a little ott by Stover, yes its fantasy but always there is this 'common' guy who manages to pull off the impossible and escape death so many times. Sure it was done cleverly but isn't the whole concept very much an overly used stereotype in the genre as a whole now?

Ah, but Caine was far from the ultimate warrior. He was the major underdog in many ways; however, the fact was always clear (and in fact was made clearer in BoT) that he had always been up against stronger, faster, more powerful opponents, and had persisted using a combination of quick thinking, reflexes and sheer bravado.

*MINOR SPOILER*
Look at the price he paid at the end: few fantasy heroes suffer as much as he did
*END SPOILER*

HD is essentially a heroic fantasy: at the core of it stands a hero, Caine. Caine would be more of a bully and less of a hero if he continually trounced lesser opponents. What made him what he was and what built his mystique was precisely what the book was about.

True, it may be a fantasy stereotype, but it is brilliantly executed, as you said. Stover did not set out to write The Fionavar Tapestry, and I'm not sure he would've succeeded half as well had he tried. He was writing heroic fantasy, and made it more credible than 95% of the stuff out there.

[kater]

I have to debate the word 'hero' - much in the same way as David Gemmell styled waylander/dakeyras as the 'grey man', neither good nor bad simply someone who pursues his own goals which occasionally be deemed 'heroic' but other times border on murder, Caine is the same - even Shanna/ pallas recognised this and was why she hated Caine.

[Shehzad]

Caine doesn't have the most glorious past- he comes burdened with a significant number of skeletons. However, in the course of HD and BoT, his actions are certainly no less than heroic in more ways than one. A lot also depends on how you define "hero", I suppose.

[ChrisW]

Hrm well others looking at Caine's actions may think he was heroic but we all know he was acting out of selfishness and didn't really give a damn as long as he got what he wanted.

Being a hero in my opinion is acting for the good of other people not yourself.

[Rob B]

Originally posted by Caldazar
Hrm well others looking at Caine's actions may think he was heroic but we all know he was acting out of selfishness and didn't really give a damn as long as he got what he wanted.

Being a hero in my opinion is acting for the good of other people not yourself.

That could be an interesting argument of whether Caine/Hari acted for the good of himself or others.

On one hand you could say he acted in Pallas' interest, ultimately he was willing to sacrifice everything, everything, of himself in order that she be safe.

Conversely, you could say it was selfish because he was the one that would feel the consequences if he survived and she did not.

What also makes him a hero is that he ultimately triumphs over the odds. As Shehzad stated, Berne completely outmatched Caine in terms of sheer power & strength, even without Kossal.

While Caine's previous actions may have blurred his heroic stature, what he did, how he did it and why he did it in HD cemented his status as Hero.

You can also argue that pre-Heroes Die Caine was a hero, in terms of starring in the most popular adventures. James Bond is a misogynist but in many ways he is a hero. Caine is also flawed, and any good hero, or rather one the reader/viewer can identify with should be flawed.

[kater]

Originally posted by FitzFlagg
What also makes him a hero is that he ultimately triumphs over the odds. While Caine's previous actions may have blurred his heroic stature, what he did, how he did it and why he did it in HD cemented his status as Hero.


I have to disagree because effectively that argument suggests that the end defines status, a hero is simply not defined by being a winner. He does what he has to do pretty much all of the book and sometimes good things come of these actions, but actions are all about intentions and Caine's intent is set solely on his own personal goals.