[kater]

But he is also an intelligent, reasoning being. Environment does not defy natural intelligence put precipitates the ability to evolve thought processes that do not blindly follow the socially accepted norm, as an example if Pug had, he would have just let the games go on but no, he was given a position of power to do as he saw fit and the environment did not limit his ability to change it in anyway.

[kegasaurus]

Haven't read the book yet, but is this fantasies equivalent to the Great Gatsby?

[Shehzad]

Anybody here....?

[ChrisW]

Ding dong the thread is dead!:p

[Eventine]

It sorted of exploded early and then petered out. If we could just catch that Peter fellow :)

One thing I noticed about this is that the fighting is very well written. I could understand exactly how Caine was moving his body around to kick the crap out of whoever he came across, whereas with some other authors I lose track of what is going on witha fight, and come out only with the understanding that soem bad guy got beheaded after a series of cool moves by our hero. Is this unique to Stover? Is it a result of his martial arts training? Writing ability? A blend of both?

[FicusFan]

I read this book a few years ago for another group. So I am a bit rusty on some of the details. I didn't like it enough to read it again for this group.

I liked the dual tracks with the real world and the fantasy world. I wished that MWS had fleshed out the real world more though, and had expanded on the caste system and how it had evolved. We had just read KW Jeter's Noir, and parts of Heroes Die seemed to have a similar setup and feel to them.

I never did understand why the objective Caine was given was to kill M'ell Koth. It would seem that the people in charge in the real world would be more likely to work a deal with him to their mutual benefit. Killing him was too black/white for me, too simpleminded for the evil manipulators on earth. As a plot point it always bothered me.

I found the fighting boring, too often, and too long. I think I found the separation between Caine and his squeeze to be silly and stagey. There were some characters I liked in the fantasy world, but I don't think we spent enough time with them. I also found the writing was almost painful to read. On balance I enjoyed the story, but I was very glad when it was over and would not really recommend it.

I can't actually put my finger on what in the writing was so awful, but I have seen a thread here about MWS called the Preacher. I didn't really notice that aspect, but perhaps that was the issue.

I do have BOT but have put off reading it because HD was like wading through quick setting cement.

[Sammie]

Oooops - have been a bit slow off the mark, here!

O - am afraid i'm going to use the lazy quote/unquote method of response, so please excuse my disjointedness!

Originally posted by kater
Pug didn't commit genocide, genocide is the destruction of a whole race - this was not the case, yes there were 'commoners' there but the whole point is that they were all there to view grisly murders being perpertrated for their pleasure and amusement, it was an indictment on the society. Caine's action lead to the deaths of the people in the stadium and to say he isn't responsible is like saying it makes a difference whether you stab someone in the back or front. He was responsible for their deaths, i agree - but he made what seemed the right choice to him at the time.

Heroism to me is not achieveing your own selfish objectives at the cost of many other people's lives....Agreed, and yet, were his objectives selfish - he was prepared to save Shanna even at the cost of his own life - that is, knowing that he had nothing to gain (she was seeing someone else, after all) and everything to lose, he still tried to save her.

...the 'great victory' doesn't exist, what did he achieve that was of worth?Hmm......i guess i felt that saving the woman he loved was his 'great victory'

Moralistic issues are an integral part of heroism, it is intent not outcome that define a heroic act, not how the result of that act turns out. Again, agreed. But IMO his intent was moral. Yes, he employs some arguably amoral tatics to acheve it, but his intent itself is a noble/heroic one imo.

You all seem to have been drawn in by this character.....What can i say - Stover rules! :D

....killing someone isn't an amoral act then? Yes within the context of the book killing is an acceptable tool but Caine has to literally force himself to think through other options rather than killing, rather than just using his atavistic urge to charge in and kill everything he has to think more like 'Hari'. I'm not saying that you let a loved one die but at what cost the worth of that life, how many other 'innocents' just like the ones you say Pug killed can be justified before his 'different' morals become anything other than homicidal? It's a thin line! Umm.....i didn't say that killing wasn't amoral - i agree that Caine does some amoral things - some justifiable, others less so - but so do we all, to varying degrees, and my feeling was that on balance Caine is a moral person. As FF says, he has grown up with violence, and so to a great extent his morals reflect this - but they []are[/i] a moral code, nonetheless. I actually felt that his attmpts to circumvent his natural and conditioned urges towards violence/killing spoke in favour of Caine's fundamentally moral attitude. Circumstance has taught him to act like a b*stard, but underneath he is a decent person, and Shanna brings that out in him.

I think that's rant enough for now! Hopefully it makes SOME sense! (If not, i'm sure Shz will translate for me ;) :D)

Last quick thing - agree with Eventine that Stover is much better than most at creating a clear picture in your head of what's actually happening during a fight... Am more used to imagining fights as kinda blurry!

[Sammie]

Originally posted by FicusFan
I liked the dual tracks with the real world and the fantasy world. I wished that MWS had fleshed out the real world more though, and had expanded on the caste system and how it had evolved. Ficus, if you do decide to read BoT, you'll get this info there.

I never did understand why the objective Caine was given was to kill M'ell Koth. It would seem that the people in charge in the real world would be more likely to work a deal with him to their mutual benefit. Killing him was too black/white for me, too simpleminded for the evil manipulators on earth. As a plot point it always bothered me.Ok, i haven't read it since the summer, so i'm kinda hazey too, but i seem to remember that the reason they went for a simple solution was that the problem was simple: Ma'el Koth was creating peace on overworld, but the money in Acting came from showing war, so he had to go. I think that's right, anyway.....

[Rob B]

Sammie, I think you've got with why Caine's mission was to kill Ma'elKoth. It is also another illustrative point of how the Studios want as much bloodshed as possible. Ma'elKoth was also getting too powerful for the Studio, he was beginning to suspect something strange was going on thus the Aktir hunt after the SWAT Team (or whatever it was) stormed his throne-room with automatic weapons.

[Sammie]

Oh yeah, i'd forgotten that. So yeah, the guy was well on the way to 'knowing too much', as well.