[kegasaurus]

Originally posted by FitzFlagg


There is a somewhat logical comparison to The Running Man, but outside of the surface comparisons, there isn't much else. Wonder how Stover would react to being compared to a B-quality version of one of Stephen King's lesser works?


Hey hey hey. That was 'The great Gatsby' with a little 'running man' thank you. I do believe Stover would be suitably impressed, though I'd have to get through the pile to read the book which is under House of chains, theh drenai books, crossroads of twilight, gene wolf (Which I can't find the first book of) the new hobb books, Marcos etc, etc.

[Dystran Hart]

Enjoyed the book greatly. I did not read it quickly as I was short on time, and just got to read 30 mins or an hour here and there (luchtimes basically). This really drummed into me how much was actually going on! Each small section that I read brought with it a lot of action and/or interest. I find that many books that I have read can be a bit slow moving, with many troughs, and just a few peaks of excitment (usually towards the end). HD had so many peaks scattered throught the novel, whether that be physical action or character interaction - it was all good.

I cannot really add anything that has not been mentioned already :) - generally I loved the crossover of the Hari/Caine character traits. I loved the 'running man' twist to the genre, which still enabled enough typical fantasy action that I love, whilst allowing Stover to bring a comparitive society to fuel my interest in the storyline in a way that will keep the story in the front of my mind above many others.

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Hari/Caine I found very interesting - a very mixed character. Berne as someone mentioned had no redeeming qualities. But was Caine any worse a person than Ma'elKoth? Caine told us he would have had the death of 20,000 and then some for the love of Pallas Ril. Caine was not a very forgiving person (although he changed a bit perhaps towards the end ...). Ma'elKoth to an extent loved his people, and he 'tried' to avoid using the flow and draining lives where he could. He told Berne himself to be careful when using his power, but agreed for Berne to use his power "if he really needed to, to destroy Caine". Ma'elKoth seemed to balance up death against the benefits whereas Caine would kill and let down anyone for his one love - very dangerous :)

Also, I loved how Mael'Koth was described throughout as "My" with a capital 'M' - and then towards the end when up against the now powerful Pallas, she was described as "You/Your" with capital 'Y's' :) - nice unique touch.

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[Rob B]

Originally posted by Shehzad
Kind of like Saruman to Sauron?


EXACTLY.

[Shehzad]

SPOILERS****************************************** **








And that in turn implies that Caine/Hari couldn't actually shake the REAL enemy, merely the cosmetic one when he displaced Kohlberg at the end of HD. So in a way, his triumph was incomplete.








END SPOILER*************************************

[Nimea]

Well well, for months now I seem to suffer from ‚posting incapability’. I read my forums as often as before and really enjoy it, but to finally post my opinion is hard work. First I thought it was because of my upcoming tests but that was a month ago . . .

So now, anyway, while reading Gardens of the Moon as quickly as I can manage (which is not as quickly as I wish it would be due to work and other time-consuming activities) I at least wanted to get my opinion on Heroes Die written down.

First of all, I give the novel a nice four of five stars. Five star books are only those that deeply and thoroughly shake me and catch my mind. Four star books are very good books that are definitely worth a read.
Okay now, why only four not five?
Mmh . . . I liked his writing, the changing PoVs, some characters I really really liked (Talann for example) and the overall idea with Earth and Overworld and this special entertainment industry.
What did I not like? Probably I should not have read the author’s interview at the end of the book. I am not really with him on some matters – but that’s another point altogether.
There is one little thing that bugged me by the half of the book and got a bit worse to the end. His sexual comparisons . . . hello? Everything astonishingly magical automatically triggered a sexual ‘afterglow’ – well, nothing against the idea itself. But it was not explained enough, it just was described some times. As well as two men standing so close together that they could have kissed. I really have nothing against homosexual tension, but again it was simply put in there without making it special, meaningful . . . aaargh, it is really hard to explain.
About Caine and Hari. I got the feeling that Caine is part of Hari, but a dark egoistic and not very good part of him. When he went on the mission to rescue his wife he started to act differently despite being in the role of Caine. He did not kill where it was not necessary – I think that’s because he tried to be more like himself, like Hari – and for sure a man who wanted to be loved by Shanna/Pallas Ril. Like a man that the first time in his life really learned something about himself and the truth of his reality. A man that was deeply shaken by his lost love and his feelings for his wife made him change. By the way, I absolutely loved the short dialogues before each ‘day’ started. And quite interesting that it were seven days . . . *harhar* Oh, and his longing and ‘heart-brokeness’ was really well described. That convinced me much more than his descriptions of the diverse fights. Or the queer but for himself very logical thoughts of Lamorak.
Back to Hari and Caine. Maybe Hari only then started to realize that Caine was not him, that it was only a part of him. And that probably was Shanna’s problem as well. She could not cope with Caine and lost Hari out of sight.

What now, made that any sense? I don’t know, but those are my thoughts on the matter.

Some more points of critique: Ma'elKoth and Berne. It was clear from the beginning that Big M would ‘looo-hooo-se’ (I recently watched Ace Ventura), at least for me. Why? You really have a problem when you know that you are perfect. That makes you weak on some occasions. Like when he wore the net and Hari would have been able to kill him.
I am not all to comfortable with this kind of ‘evil’ over-lord. And now don’t start to argument that he was not evil. He was, surely not in his own mind, but nonetheless.
Oh, the portrait of Ma'elKoth made out of bodies – that was a really interesting picture.
And Berne? Oh god, I don’t like those over-crazed perverted bad guys that are invincible. He was not so badly written that he totally disturbed me, yet . . . ach, never mind.

Is Caine/Hari a hero? I don’t really know. I would call Talann a possible hero and Pallas Ril.
Him? Maybe. Was it egoistic to risk everyone else “just” for his love? I don’t think he tried to save her for himself only. He truly loves Shanna, he only wanted her to be save. That he killed for that goal and did not care whether or not someone else suffered . . . he definitely is not a pure, good-hearted, shining hero. But no wonder, considering Caine. And it would not have been convincing if he would have started to act like that in the end. With all that happened he could not have become that kind of person.

So, you see, I was/am fascinated by Hari’s character, like most of you. I definitely will read Blade of Tyshelle. And happy little me even found the out-of-print german translations of ‘Iron Dawn’ and ‘Jericho Moon’.

:)

[Shehzad]

Originally posted by Nimea
I am not all to comfortable with this kind of ‘evil’ over-lord. And now don’t start to argument that he was not evil. He was, surely not in his own mind, but nonetheless.

And what makes him evil? His reign was in fact an improvement for his subjects. He may have been despotic but it was a trade-off, for those who gave themselves up to him found peace.

[saintjon]

Well, the thing is, he didn't win when he "overcame" the Caine within him, he just found some path where he could be Hari and Caine at the same time.

I mean, the definitive Caine thing, the rage, was there long before Caine. Even when he was trying to not kill anybody, he was still fueling his will that Shanna be safe with rage that people would mess with her in the first place.

I thought the most interesting character in the book was his dad. The scenes where he's talking to his pops were the most interesting ones in the book. I mean, it's cool how much of a giant the guy is in Hari's life, shaping him to be Hari as much as did to be Caine, and there's nothing left of him but this sentient cell in a prison. Good stuff.

[Nimea]

Ha, just a matter of time . . .

Shehzad:

Does what you stated make him 'good'? And does it make him right?
Well, good intentions not always justify the means. He intended good, he believed himself just working for his people.
But he killed his citizens whenever he needed their power - and it 'grieved' him. Heck, yeah! *rolleyes* He killed those that where not of his opinion (and often enough people that just were at the wrong time coming through the wrong way out ;) ), making his whole people afraid of each other (What an improvement!). One of his highest ranking man was a psychopathic killer!
He just wanted to be loved, respected, he wanted to be more than a little mage. He made himself attractive, brilliant, powerful - godlike. Why? Hardly for the sake of his people!
And where would he have stopped?

That he was not the only bad guy, true! I absolutely believed him when he told the story how Kollberg's soldiers got into the palace and killed so many people. It really shocked him, allright. (By the way, I think I lost something on the way there. Why on Earth did Kollberg send this killer squad? I mean, was that not too dangerous to be found out on Overworld? I really would like to hear an explanation on that!) What did he do with his hunt for the actors?

A man like Ma'elKoth makes me shiver, much more like a psycho like Berne. Great characterization? Ehm, yeah, maybe, yet I already stated for what other reasons I did not really like his portayal too much.

So much about that.

:)

[Sammie]

I see what you mean about Ma'el Koth being kinda scarier than Berne - Ma'el Koth actually believes the 'bad' things he does are justifiable. I don't think that means that the actions aren't bad, agreed - but i think there's a case for argueing that he isn't, fundamentally, a 'bad' person. After all, all good people do some bad things, and vice versa. Where do we draw the line?

This is kinda Stover's point, methinks.

SJ - i too think his Dad is a cool character.

[saintjon]

Another favourite scene:

Berne and Caine admit to each other that Talann was better than either of them. A weird little moment of bonding between two people who hate each other so much. It's like "Man, why is it us here? How have we beat the game for so long?" I think if Berne hadn't been exalted by Ma'elkoth he would've been as burned out as Caine at the start of the story.