[Blackfish]

Yes, I know we're reading fantasy, and that means anything can happen. However, some fantasy authors are striving for realism in their work, which makes certain unrealistic things about their worlds stick out (to me anyway).

I've seen this happen with other authors, but I will use GRRM as my example (much as I love his work). In aSoIaF, from what I recall, the book states that the great wall in the north was made something like 8000 years ago. The characters in the book make references to historical happenings dating back thousands of years. Yet, the people in the story are still in what we would refer to as a 'middle ages' setting.

I personally find it to be a little too fantastic to be expected to believe that in this world, civilization has been around for more than 8000 years and the folk are still using swords, bows and arrows, living in castles and using fire for light.

In our own short history, we progressed from middle ages to today's technological society in roughly 600-700 years. Why do some fantasy authors seem to think that they can create a lengthy timeline without taking away some of the authenticity of the story? Any thoughts? And I'm not talking about Jordan and Brooks who postulate that civilization was built up and then brought down again and everyone started over...at least that's slightly more believable.

[ezchaos]

Blackfish, I know what you mean. I've wondered the same thing about some of the stories I've read, especially the ones where the author takes us back in time or the characters actually travel into the past. I wonder if some authors just make up some astronomical period of time to try to awe the reader.

The other thing is - how do the characters in these stories reliably know what happened 8 or 10,000 years in the past? It would be different if they were living in an advanced civilization with computers that could accurately 'save' written history, but we're talking Medieval level society here! I'd think in a society like that, 1,000 years would be stretching things. If you think about it, we don't know much of what happened on our own planet beyond 3 or 4 thousand years ago.

And last of all, the thing with technology not advancing has always bothered me. Unless there's a reason for the lack of technological advancement, like the use of magic, a cataclysm, or the Gods holding things back, it would be reasonable to think that people would not be using the same weapons and tools over the course of hundreds of years.

[milamber_reborn]

I see what you're getting at, but just because we developed quick here on Earth doesn't mean other civilisations, be they on other planets in real life or in fantasy, will be exactly the same. Too many factors. Maybe we were just lcuky enough to have a lot of highly intelligent inventors to bring on the industrial age and speed things along.

[Hemingway]

When you really think about it, early greece when compared extensively to the medieval ages gleamed few significant advancements, and even the Rama Empire, supposedly a rival of Atlantis dates back to around 8000 B.C., and relatively minescule advances occured from that period to Medieval times.

Although if one studies some of the ancient sanskrit texts they may come to the realization that we have actually taken a few steps back in technology, because supposedly they had what appear to be atomic weapons and flying machines called Vimana's that sound similar to what we percieve as U.F.O's. Allow me to take a quote:

"Gurkha in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against the three cities of Vrishis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire as brilliant as ten thousand suns, rose in all its splendor. It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashesthe the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas."

Another one reads as such, from the Samarangana Sutradhara: "Strong and durable must the body of the Vihmana be made, like a great flying bird of light material. Inside one must put the mercury engine with its iron heating apparatus underneath. By means of the power latent in the mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion, a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in the sky. The movements of the Vimana are such that it can vertically ascend, vertically descend, move slanting forwards and backwards. With the help of the machines human beings can fly in the air and heavenly beings can come down to earth."

It is also well known that Hitler visited a library of Tibet and studied these writings, and after he created the buzz bomb, it is unclear wether he gained some knowledge that helped him in his creation.
Very interesting stuff, but I've gone way off topic.

[Aik Haw]

Blackfish:-
That is because Blackfish you are looking from a European bias. The Europeans were the only civilisation to undergo a self imposed and prolonged "jump start" from the Middle Ages onto the Industrial Age. This has more to do with the fact that Europe, unlike Asia and the Arab world, had the problem of many nations practically assailing each other over an extremely small space and resource and the need to develop a technological edge soon became an imperative for survival. Any nations lagging technological behind, or fail to develop some level of technological advantage will fail. This has a lot to do with the fact that each European nation were practically equal in population size, agricultural output, resource level etc.. with each other which meant that the only advantage they can gain over the other lies in technology, which lead to conquest etc.. This drive meant that gaining knowledge in science which lead to ultimately better medicine and weapons were a positive gain.

Europe also had the advantage of having strong contact with the Arabs, who at that point in time were philosophers and theoretical scientist, and this gave the Europeans a foundation by which to base their technological jump upon. The Arabs were instrumental in advancing the science of mathematics and without their 700 years of input, like the creation of algebra and geometry and the synthesis of alchemy into a standard science, the jump start the Europeans took would have taken another few decades or centuries longer. Also, the Black Plague, which I will elaborate later, showed to the Europeans that the Arab approach to medicine, an empiric, systematic, saved more life than their going to Church and pray and this gave rise to the empiric model which will later drive the foundation of European based science.

As I said before, the Black Plague contributed greatly to a change in European mindset. The aftermirth of the Black Plague resulted in a fundamental change in the European society. The All Powerful Church became weak, the society, once population dependent suddenly needed to become independent as a massive amount of the normal population now ceased to exist.
Whole ideas taken for granted before the Plague were now reexamined and discarded, a real deep soul searching for the Europeans and also the roots by which their science taken root.

And let's not forget, Europe suffered from more wars and battle than Asia and the Arab world combined from 1400s to 1800s on a magnitude of 1 battle in Asia and the Arab world to 20 in Europe. Everything the Europeans build has this tendency either to be ruined or destroyed. From this destruction the Europeans can build new things, and usually better things which demands technological drive, especially since efficiency for most new constructions were in demand. In China for example, a building last on an average of 400 years. You build one with the expectation that your great great great great grandchildren can still live in it. In Europe, your house might be torched by an invading army at any time!! In China, some of our roads are over 3000 years old. In Europe, war, army sabotage etc.. means that roadworks are also under constant change and improvement. Everytime it is destroyed, it opens new avenues for new buildings and new techno. In huge countries like China, why bother? It will be there for the next 300 years you know.

These combination of disastrous, painful and sad factors were never this prolonged for many other races. My race, the Chinese underwent brief technological jumpstart during the Western Chou Dynasty and during the epoch of the Warring Kingdoms. All the periods in between, from the Shang Dynasty to the Western Chou, the Western Chou till the Warring Kingdoms, and from the Warring Kingdoms to the Qing Dynasty, were marked by utter technological stagnation. Why?

Because there was no need for more advanced technology. Society was living happily as they were and any technological advancement were unnecessary and brought unrest. During the Western Chou Dynasty China was continously assaulted by barbarians and the need to get rid of the barbarians became an imperative for the Western Chou Dynasty. Western Chou was also not a big nation ( the size being something like the area of France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany combined ) and on it's frontiers were hundreds of small barbarian nations. Any technological development, the biggest being steel forging, gun powder and the compass, which will give the Imperium an edge over the barbarians were embraced with open heart and encouraged. Indeed, such was the imperative that in the initial 200 years of the Western Chou Dynasty China developed everything ranging from paper to small cannons.

However, by the Middle Reign of the Western Chou Dynasty, China covered the area equivalent to the entire Western Europe from Austria and Poland onwards. The barbarian nations now faded, unable to contend with the superb power of the Chou Dynasty. People were living in relative comfort. Any new technological advancement no longer provided an advantage. In fact, any new technological advancement means a massive upheaval in society. Suddenly, technological advancement became a bane, not a gain and the need for techno advancement ceased. Hence, ends the first techno jump for the Chinese.

The Warring Kingdoms came over 1200 years later. In this period, China made little technological advancement. Suddenly, the nations broke up ( into something like Europe, where each nation were more or less equal sized, equal pop, equal agriculture and resource ). Danger of border incursion increased each day. Trade was not certain. Different kings ruled differently. War was constant.

And the only way to secure advantage over the other lay in massive technological buildup.

The Chinese science jumpstarted here once again. The long bow, the crossbow, the fire whip, meteorology based upon lower atmospheric currents to predict the weather etc.. were developed all over the various kingdoms. Kingdoms that had a technological or tactical edge over the other were able to overcome another kingdom. The need to jump start medical technology etc.. became greater as small epidemics broke out. For over 150 years, technological jumps happened.

Then it all ceased. Supersize kingdoms started forming, kingdoms that could overrun smaller kingdoms regardless their technology by sheer numbers alone. Supersize kingdoms started clashing with each other and the edge soon became not technology but resource and population. You can have the best seige engines as the small kingdom of Xing found out but when faced with 120000 soldiers versus your measely 3000 armed with huge people killing catapult you will still lose ( 3000 soldiers armed with the catapult killed 50000 soldiers before they were wiped out, but they still lost, while the bigger kingdom were now sending another 60000 to greet them ). Also, for the big kingdoms, suddenly trying to employ modern technology like long range bows etc.. or fire whips became too costly, while the cheaper and surer way to win a war now was to pit your half a million soldiers with each other in the battlefield. Attrition became acceptable with such huge numbers, reducing the role of the science of medicine, physics etc.. Drive to technology fades for 2200 years from then on, especially given China's technology remained superior to every other nation in the region till 1800AD after the Japanese started going down the Western Industrial path while China retained it's shut door policy. Even than the Chinese were still capable of mounting a huge war of attrition game. The Chinese could at one point easily won the Opium War were it not for the stupidity and fractious nature of the later Qing Imperium who tried to play divide and conquer and assumed that divided and unhappy people will fight for them!!

[Aik Haw]

Long period of technological stagnation is more common than you think Blackfish. The Japanese and Koreans mantained their Middle Age lifestyles for over 2000 years( in fact, the Japanese did not change their housing style much ever since they migrated from mainland China after the Warring States ). The Indian lifestyle remained the same for over 3000 years, especially in the aspect of their agriculture and metal forging technology. Many people in the Arab world still live the lifestyle and employ the technology of their forebears 600 years prior. Some cultures in South East Asia have yet to even make a technological jump to iron forging. In fact, many cultures in Africa do not even have agriculture and relies on a hunter gatherer lifestyle to subsist. Just because Europe had a sustained jump do not reflect that other nations will do the same.

In fact, when faced with a choice of techno jump or big population, Empress Dowager murdered the pioneer of Industrial China Emperor Wen Xi as Empress Dowager and the Confucian Eunuchs believed the more people the merrier and technology as disruptive ( note, the reason for these believe comes from historical precedent. Every single techno jump in Chinese history weakened the bonds in society and made people more provocative and dangerous as they have the power to disagree with centuries old dogma. Unless absolutely necessary for survival or an edge, it was disadvantageous to the ruling bodies and society as a whole to encourage these, especially given that smart and inquistive offspring tend not to care about the parents ), and this delusion was imposed further when the Chinese practically kept the Japanese invader under constant seige during the 1930s to 1945 Occupation that sheer population volume was enough. Even Chairman Mao had this delusion that the more the merrier and spited any techno jump. Only Deng Xiao Peng and the later leaders changed China and are bringing us into our third historical techno jump, after over 2200 years of stagnation on our part.

ezchaos:-
Until 1910, the Chinese were using the exactly same agricultural tools developed during the period of the Warring States, most from 300BC. The double gouge plough remained in frequent use till then.

And until the Mongolian invasion in 1100AD, the Chinese were using the same weapons as used by their forebears during the Warring States.

And until 1900s, the Chinese were using exactly the same general medical approach developed by the Yellow Emperor in 4000BC. Of course, the Yellow Emperor's approach to medicine would only be rivalled by European medicine in the late 19th century anyway, and some aspects of medicine developed like acupuncture now applied to modern medicine is still more advanced than our current medicine.

And until the 1910s, the Chinese were using exactly the same legal system as used by our ancestors in 4000BC. Of course, the laws were remarkably liberal given that we even have laws for divorce!!

milamber reborn:-
Or maybe just the need to develop. When the initial colonist went to US or Australia, the need to develop technology to mould the landscape into something liveable was very important for survival sake or edge sake.

However, when you have a nation where everything was already laid down and made cosy and nice for you 5000 to 6000 years ago, and especially since most of the structure remained intact due to lack of war etc.., where is the need for techno drive? What you need is techno mantainence, not advancement as advancement adds in elements of uncertainty. Everything you need is around you, don't fix what ain't broken, that is the human tendency.

[Hemingway]

I would just like to comment upon the Opium wars, or as it is also know "The Anglo-Chinese War. The reason the Chinese lost is because of Englands superior navy most notably, and the ground forces advanced artillery. It began with China's monopoly upon tea, and their outrageous imperial taxation, and then England counteracted with trading opium. When the population became heavily addicted the Emperor outlawed the drug, of course this didn't keep them from smuggling the drug and bribing Canton officials. When the Emperor decided to send an official he knew could be trusted to crack down upon this criminal activity, well that's just what he did. In fact they dumped tons of opium into the ocean off of an English merchant vessel.

The superior technology, as I listed above most notably the navy won them the war. Then they imposed several one sided treaties upon them, no taxation upon trading with them, and of course the relegalization of opium that more than doubled consequently.

It really was simply a matter of superior technology that won the war. This really seems to be one of the most disregarded pieces of history, mostly because it portrays the english as at one time becoming the largest drug trafficking and criminal orginization in the world. Not exactly something you want your kids to know about.

[Pluvious]

Thank you for the history lesson Aik Haw. Very impressive.

Us "Euro-centered" folk do tend to think in terms of european history when talking about the middle ages. Never the less, I would like to illustrate just how much was needed for the middle ages to end and the renaissance to begin. It wasn't simply technology that was changing.

Keep in mind that the change was relatively gradual (a couple hundred years). Also, I am not yet willing to state what specific occurance most precipitated the change. I will simply list some of the many changes during a time of great change.

First off, religious freedom and persecution created internal turmoil within countries and led to some truly bitter fighting between neighboring countries. This led to greater competition and a more serious need to expand the influence of your particular realm.

A primary means of expansion was provided by the discovery of the New World. Trade privledges, raw materials (gold, silver, slaves), and new colonies all affected the power and control of each country.

Technological change was actually always in evidence in the middle ages (despite what many people think), but did escalate considerably in the 15th century and beyond. Some of the major implementations were gunpowder (actually from China, but not widely used in Europe until the 15th century), sailing ships, and the printing press. All of these were great factors in the spread of information and ideas.

Economic and political change was very evident in the 15th century and beyond. Feudalism was too limited and standing armies made large scale war more practical. The influence of the great noble houses lost much of their power to the merchant class and the central government.

And of course knowledge and the arts helped expediate the transfer of information. People studied the greek classics and began to want more. And of course the more you learn the more you want to learn and change.

Well, those are some of the major changes that occured between the middle ages and renaissance (or 15th-17th century). What an exciting time in history!

[Medwyn]

Aik Haw, you make an excellent point.

However . . . It seems to me that most of the fantasy worlds we read about would be, if anything, more extreme than Europe in their requirements for technological change. When you're dealing with factors like magic, gods, dark lords, heroic quests, etc., there is obviously a lot of conflict and change. Even in a completely non-magical fantasy world, there is generally going to be an above-average amount of drama, often on a very large scale (political upheavals, wars, etc.). Using your well-supported model, I would think that many fantasy worlds would have a much faster rate of technological and cultural change than any civilization in Earth's history.

[Pluvious]

Good point Medwyn. However, it would depend on the specific fantasy world. Magic might actually decrease the need for technological change. If you have magic why would you need guns? Magicians might even try to limit technology or any type of change. Tyrants and empires also tend to limit change.

Change is never so cut and dry as us 21st century types may believe. Its a very complicated issue. Our history is not the only possible type of history. It could have very easily happened differently for us. What if the Roman Empire never fell? We would never even have had a middle ages.

Also, throughout our own history we have regressed in terms of technology many times. The most famous being of course the fall of Rome. But there have been others. The Egyptians also had an advanced civilization that eventually fell to conquerors and despotism. And without world unity not known until recent history the transfer of knowledge was slow and often lost. There are many stories of conquerors destroying valueable texts and whole libraries after defeating an enemy.

Oh, and what about the Native Peoples of Africa and the Americas? They have been around as long or longer then the Europeans or Asian peoples yet they never developed beyond primitive cultures (well, a few did actually). Why is that? Obviously because they didn't need or want to.

I'm actually working a series of novels that focuses on parallel worlds. One has progressed along the lines of our earth and exists as the technological equivalent of the early 17th century. However, the other world has become stagnant and maintains a 14th century technological level. The factors involved in this stagnation is obviously a primary theme.

Anyway, I guess my point is that anything can pretty much happen in history as long as there is an explanation. And the explanation is the job of the author. If the author fails then the work may lack credibility. But a blanket statement about civilizations not being able to maintain a given technological level is in error.