[FicusFan]

Originally posted by scooter13
I don't think it was childish macho BS that they would leave their families to make a better life. Now though not the best analogy, but would you say the same thing about the French underground during WWII?


I would say that I thought the underground was effective because they worked in their home areas. They knew the landmarks, the people, and the local disposition of the enemy. I thought they did most of their running around at night, and were at home during the day, perhaps hiding people there. They may have endangered their families, but I don't think they abandoned them. I also bet they talked to the family members and got their support and their input before making such a big decision.

People make choices all the time. Sometimes the results are that others suffer because of a choice you made. What I dislike so much is that it is their family members who ended up suffering, and not because they hated each other or were trying to harm them, but because they didn't think the person was even important enough to consider when they made the decision.
I am still reading and haven't gotten to the end yet, but does anyone ever think about Diannora or Baerd's mother in the book ?

What about the Night Walkers in the village ? It would have been so easy for them to run away. Their friends, family and lands were all dying. They lost the battle every year, yet they stayed to do the work they were needed to do.


Originally posted by scooter13
They wanted better lives, for all the Palm nations. Alessan is even chided by his mother for not taking up arms immediately and defeating Brandin. Because he is looking at the whole of the problem. And if the name if Tigana can be made free in the prossess, then that's bonus.

I think Alessan didn't take up arms immediately, because he was not a stupid man, and he knew he would lose. I think he plans to reign gloriously rather than die that way.

[FicusFan]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Ouroboros
OK, this is interesting. I think we interpet what Kay is conveying in a different way. I feel that Kay is depicting their desperate attempts to restore Tigana in a way that empasises what you are talking about: the sacrifices, the ridiculous fact of a man giving up good things in his life to avenge a non-existent country...


Sure, this comes across in the text, the 'macho' aspect: but that's part of Kay's point, isn't it? Their heroics are irony-heavy.

[/QUOTE]

I hadn't really gotten far enough away from my dislike to look at it as irony, but I do agree with you now that you point it out. Reading for me is a very visceral experience and that can often impede the analytical process. Besides irony is hard. :eek:

Originally posted by Ouroboros
Fair enough, if you don't see it, you don't see it (I don't mean that in a condescending way, maybe it is just me). But the obsessive/negative aspects of the protagonists, their dysfunctional nature and how Kay highlights it, is what really stands out in this book for me.



It isn't that I don't see or agree that there is a very strong obsessive nationalistic tenor to the characters and their actions. Its that I am not willing to give Kay the out by saying that is the theme he is exploring in the book. I am too pissed at being stuck with these people and this story for close to 700 pages.:mad:

I don't want to read anything that is almost all one color. I always say I like shades of grey, rather than black and white, but in this book he carries grey too far.


Originally posted by Ouroboros
Yeah, but that's the point! You're not supposed to like 'em, this isn't a fairy tale with happy endings... it's gritty, there are no good guys.

I don't want a fairy tale, and I don't have to have a happy ending, but I need to be able to like at least one main character.
The character doesn't have to be a hero, he or she just has to have some quality that is missing from those in the main party, maybe a basic humanity that is not totally self-absorbed. The characters I do like (Tomasso, Rovigo and his family, The Night Walkers, Bear, the Duke) all seem to care about somebody else. Hell I even find Brandon more appealing than most of the good guys.

I still have some hope for Baerd, but he is still undeveloped at over 400 pages in.

What I find so frustrating is that Kay did most of them so well. They aren't bland, or flat (even though they are mostly one-dimensional by choice), or stereotypical. It is as if they are missing some final ingredient to make them come alive. I find Devin and Diannora the hardest to deal with because they lack a center to their lives. First its passion for one thing then for another that animates them. I never (so far) know who they really are.

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted by FicusFan
Hell I even find Brandon more appealing than most of the good guys.


I think he's presented in quite a sympathetic light, in many ways.

[mistri]

Part of me didn't want Brandin to die. I also liked Dianora. Call me weird, but I found them some of the most sympathetic and interesting characters in the book.

[Hemingway]

I felt the writing was extremely poetic, but began to ramble quite often. The plot was somewhat original, but the execution was poor. To me Brandin appeared to be the more sympathetic character, now I don't mind characters being in the gray area, and I actually encourage it...but to make the supposed villain more likable than the hero's is absolute insanity. In fact I absolutely detested that one dimensional Devin.

The one thing about the entire premise that is kind of monotonous is the freedom fighters involving themselves in a quest to restore their country, and overcome their evil adversary, in that respect it kind of reminded me a little too much of Brave Heart. After reading Lions of Al Rassan I had high hopes, but I came away quite disappointed.

[Nevyn]

In fact I absolutely detested that one demensional Devin Why did you perceive Devin as one demensional , he was young after all and I think Kay intentionally wrote him as such . As for Brandin being more likeable than the heroes( no heroes in this book ! maybe one) we mostly saw him through the eyes of Dianora who herself diddn't really know if she was comming or going ! Brandin likeable , maybe , but he was still the conqueror of their land .

[mistri]

I suppose the thing about Brandin is that readers end up with two very different views of him being presented to them.

1) Alessan and co. Brandin is an evil tyrant repressing the people of the palm.

2) Dianora - she loves him. She wants to hate him, but can't - and it's obvious he loves her too.

Could a truly evil man love?

In the end I saw him as a powerful man, torn apart by grief. I think I was wrong to say he was one of the most sympathetic characters (although I do see him in a sympathetic light) but he's undeniably (IMO) interesting as we know so little about him - or at least we don't know much about his side of things.

We learn about his actions after his son died - and these actions give us a glimpse of how he must have felt - but we never get to know what he felt through his own thoughts. He remains an enigma, up until his death, while we see more of even fairly secretive/mysterious characters like Alessan.

[Rob B]

I read Tigana about two years ago and remember liking it, but also having some difficulty with it as well. At times it did seem rather slow, but I remember the ending packing a lot of punch.

At the time, it was my second experience with Kay, the first being The Fionavar Tapestry, a bit different in style so that's perhaps why I didn't enjoy it quite as much.

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Ouroboros


I think he's presented in quite a sympathetic light, in many ways.

If your premise is correct and Kay wrote the book so that there were no likeable characters, and he was exploring the dark themes that you mentioned previously -- then I suspect he wrote Brandin that way on purpose.

Then you have a story with nasty heroes, and a likeable villian. How do you realign your compass to decide who are the good guys and who are the bad guys ? I have decided to declare a pox on the whole lot. :)

From what I have seen other than high taxes and picking on the history and people of Tigana, Brandin is not all that bad as a ruler. His arbitrtarily enforcing the death penalty is pretty standard for an absolute ruler, and even his methods while gruesome are not the worst of the lot (Vlad the Impaler springs to mind).

I am not sure what the exact time frame for the story is (I am not that up on Italian history), but Brandin might be just a run of the mill ruler for his time, whose only real crime is being a foreign conqueror.

[saintjon]

If it had been one of those other provinces that was stripped of their name, do you think they would have reacted that way?

I think it's a reassuring story in that even the great are prone to making mistakes through their own passions.