[Erfael]

How many of you have the 10th anniversary edition with the afterword by the author? I would say that Kay very much intended that parallels be drawn between Tigana and things that occur in the "real" world. I'll encapsulate some of that later if no one has that edition. Erf.

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Erfael
How many of you have the 10th anniversary edition with the afterword by the author? I would say that Kay very much intended that parallels be drawn between Tigana and things that occur in the "real" world. I'll encapsulate some of that later if no one has that edition. Erf.

I haven't got that edition (didn't even know it existed!). So it would be great if you could give us an idea of what he says..

[Nevyn]

Yeah I'm with Ouroboros , that would be good thankyou !

[Ladijen]

I have that edition, but I haven't yet read the afterword. (I'm close, though!) Even without reading it, however, the parallels to real-world events or even real-world possibilities seem obvious. I agree with what has been said about the grey quality of the characters, but that in itself seems to be one important theme in the book: no one thinks of themself as a "bad guy". People's actions reflect what is most important, what is "right," to them, whether that be self-interest, religion, family, country, culture, etc. (Unfortunately, people also have the ability to delude themselves about what they believe is right.)

[Miriamele]

I just finished reading Tigana today and I must say that I loved it.

The beginning chapter, describing the poet sitting in the tavern in Astibar, was terrible. As I was reading it I kept thinking, "What is the big deal with this book?" I think that Kay's biggest flaw as a writer is his inability to write beginnings that make you want to keep reading. Instead he sets the scene for his complex story by dumping loads of information on the reader. (As a side note, I believe he's improved on this--the beginning of The Last Light of the Sun was very interesting and had no info dumps.)

But I slogged through it, and by the time I was a few chapters in I was totally hooked. The story builds slowly, but it does build, and by the last chapter of the book I could hardly breathe because I was so eager to find out what happened.

The story is not predictable. I like complex stories like this that take lots of twists and turns, and contain significant surpises. I also like books like this that mostly deal with shades of grey instead of black and white, because they make you think. Often while reading Tigana I had to put the book down to think for a few moments if a character had been justified for doing something. I felt every bit as much sympathy for Brandin and Dianora, because their deplorable actions were done with love in mind, as I felt for Alessan and his group. This is like real life, where bad guys and good guys rarely exist.

Kay's writing contains a message of compassion for all people. But there was one character I really disliked and could feel no sympathy for: Alberico, not only because he killed so many innocent people gruesomely because he seemed to have no feelings at all, no soul, only a cold meaninless ambition. He didn't care about anything except his desire to be Emperor.

As well as the dark and pensive themes of the book, I enjoyed Kay's writing style as always. Although his poetic prose sometimes borders on melodrama he has the power to take my breath away. Rarely do I read a book and want to read certain lines over and over again because they're so beautiful.

I know I'm rambling, but I'd like to mention some scenes I felt to be especially memorable:
1. When Catriana has sex with Devin to keep him from overhearing the conversation in the next room--I thought it was kind of funny, especially since he still heard the whole thing anyway.
2. When Duke Sandre turns out to be the sixth man! I really hadn't imagined that he could still be alive and my mouth dropped open at that part.
3. I almost wept with relief when Sandre gives Tomasso the poison before he has the chance to be tortured, because I really liked Tomasso, and it was a very touching scene because Tomasso thinks his father is a ghost.
4. Dionara's incestuous relationship with her brother aptly shows how corrupt and tainted Tigana, and their hearts, had become.
5. The scene where the wizard is bound to Alessan is fabulous. Kay does a wonderful job of conveying the tortured emotions of the man. (I also liked the scene when he is freed--the wizard is a very interesting character).
6. Dionara's ring dive, and decision to choose life instead of death, was beautifully written.
7. The final battle scene, in which I was cheering for Brandin more than Alessan. I really wasn't sure what was going to happen here and Kay kept me on the edge of my seat until the very end of the battle.
8. The revelation that Rhun was Valentin! Wow. Learning how Valentin was cruelly used softens the blow of Brandin's death.
9. When Dionara goes away and swims out into the ocean, her brother only a few steps away. This is a bitter end for her but appropriate. She is atoning for her sins, and now maybe she and Brandin can be together in another place.
10. The riselka at the end: perfect. I love endings that leave you guessing a bit what happens after you leave the characters.

A minor complaint: Alienor didn't seem to add much to the story and I didn't get the sex scene with her and Devin. It kind of bothered me, in fact, because it seemed out of Devin's character. (Although I'm sure Kay was trying to say something here; I just didn't get it.) It also bothered me when at the end of the book he says Devin wants to spend another night with her before settling down with Aleis, with whom he's supposedly in love. But I guess Devin was never the most admirable character of the bunch.

All in all a great book that I'll always remember. Kay is a master of emotional, poignant writing, the kind of writing that I most enjoy.

[Erfael]

A minor complaint: Alienor didn't seem to add much to the story and I didn't get the sex scene with her and Devin. It kind of bothered me, in fact, because it seemed out of Devin's character. (Although I'm sure Kay was trying to say something here; I just didn't get it.) It also bothered me when at the end of the book he says Devin wants to spend another night with her before settling down with Aleis, with whom he's supposedly in love. But I guess Devin was never the most admirable character of the bunch.

Miri, I can't agree more about everything you said.

The sex scenes are the ones I don't get either, really, both here and in Lions. Though in his afterword to the 10th Anniversary edition, Kay writes:

"The novelist Milan Kundera fed my emerging theme of opression and survival with his musings about the relationship between conquered peoples and an unstable sexuality; what I have called the "insurrections of the night." The underlying ideas, for me, had to do with how people rebel when they can't rebel, how we behave when the world has lost it's bearings, how shattered self-respect can ripple through to the most intimate levels of our lives."

That at least speaks to some of what he intended there. I haven't gone back and read the appropriate passages since reading that afterword, but I certainly didn't get any of that from it when I read it the first time. Though Kay is usually subtle enough that it takes some work to get to the essence of what he's trying to say. Perhaps if I were to go back to those passages with a few more years and a keener eye, I might pick up on some of that better than I had before.

As always with Kay's work, I love the ideas of history not beginning and ending with the covers of the book, much like in life, and the blurring of good and evil (after all, good and evil are merely labels for what we ourselves see as right and wrong). The characters are just one part of the world's history, playing their parts as best they know how, and we get to look in for a while.

[Miriamele]

Thanks for the quote Erfael. I think I better understand now what Kay was trying to do with that scene, even if I didn't enjoy it.

I agree that a "shattered self-respect can ripple through to the most intimate levels of our lives."

[Fader]

I know I'm a little late to the party here, but I just had to add my comments.

First off, I really liked Tigana. I've read too much shitty fantasy lately, which serves more than anything to remind me of the really, really good ones I've read. Books like Tigana, The First Chronicles (of Thomas Covenant), Ice and Fire... These are my favorites. These books are the reason I still read fantasy.

And now, my opinions...

I really thought that the sex scene in the castle was forced and lame. It drew me out of the story, which is the number one thing I don't want to happen when I'm reading fantasy.
However, the sex scene after the battle with the corn stalks fit the story. I didn't enjoy it, I didn't like it, but it made sense.
I LOVED the whole scene with Baerd and his buddies fighting the bad guys with corn stalks. It was written beautifully, it was visually stunning, and it was powerful. I had tears in my eyes when he began yelling at the 'mysterious figure on the hill,' and I am NOT the type to easily tear up over a book. I was very surprised at the quality of that scene.
I liked how Dionaras' story was just as interesting as the rest of the book. It could have just been a side story (especially given the ending!) but Kay chose to make her a central character in the BOOK, but not really in the STORY. I really enjoyed that twist. I expected her to be a major player in the story, but she really ended up not doing much at all. Written like that, it sounds negative, but it was a great surprise for me.
I LOVED THE ENDING OF THIS BOOK! Sorry for the caps, but honestly, so much good shit happened at the end. Rhun?! You've gotta be f*cking kidding me! My jaw actually dropped open when Rhun snapped out of it. To this day, the phrase 'buried under mountains' gives me goosebumps. And the speach that Allesan gives at the end is just great. It fits everything so well.

Overall, an excellent book. More authors need to focus their world building like this and make good stand alone novels.

[Calandra]

The theme that sticks with me from this book, and what makes it moving and powerful to me is the idea of "no going back". In so much fantasy today there is a kind of linear "quest" of clear cut good versus evil but in this book, not only is there a blurring of good and evil, but also a sense of the futility of sticking to a path in the face of changed circumstances.

So, while Brandin may have done what he did in stripping the identity of Tigana, etc. out of blind rage and pain at the time, he binds himself to that stubborn destiny even though eventually years later he becomes integrated into the land and has become more than a conquerer. Similarly, Alessan and his band of rebels has to stick to their plan even though the nature of Brandin's rule appears to be changing. Dianora on the other hand, develops a limited and reluctant acceptance of the fact that just because the goal of your life changes doesn't mean it has to end.

So what I mean is, it's a sad day for people to discover that things they have devoted their life to (quests, revenge, etc.) may be no longer valid, yet there is nothing else to replace that void, so they continue even though the only possible end is destruction and pain.

A lot of parallels could be drawn to the real world. For example, how many nations and rulers are there that have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century because they can't adapt to changing times? In contrast, thankfully there are some rulers that have the strength to admit that a past system hasn't worked and can make a transition relatively peacefully (i.e. Russia). If everyone stuck to the policy of "no going back" and stuck to their ideologies no matter what, the result would be that there is no going forward. Obviously, forgiveness is a big element here as well, and maybe some sins are unforgiveable?

Incidentally, in contrast to some of the characters in Tigana, the character Biago in John Marco's Tyrant's & Kings Trilogy comes to mind as one that is able to run the gamut from villain to hero, change his ways, etc., his challenge of course being to convince others that he has changed.

In Tigana I never really got into characters like Devin and Caterina, but it was interesting the way characters like Alessan and Brandin had their humanity overshadowed by their past/present quests and obsessions.

Overall, I didn't like the book as much as the Lions of Al Rassan, in which the "epic" story elements took more of a back seat to the character development, and I thought that worked more effectively. However, since I find that there is not much fantasy out there these days that I find actually makes me think or that approaches the "the human condition" from a different perspective (and I know there are lots of people out there who disagree with this, but so be it) -- Tigana was a welcome read.

[Miriamele]

The theme that sticks with me from this book, and what makes it moving and powerful to me is the idea of "no going back". In so much fantasy today there is a kind of linear "quest" of clear cut good versus evil but in this book, not only is there a blurring of good and evil, but also a sense of the futility of sticking to a path in the face of changed circumstances.

So, while Brandin may have done what he did in stripping the identity of Tigana, etc. out of blind rage and pain at the time, he binds himself to that stubborn destiny even though eventually years later he becomes integrated into the land and has become more than a conquerer. Similarly, Alessan and his band of rebels has to stick to their plan even though the nature of Brandin's rule appears to be changing. Dianora on the other hand, develops a limited and reluctant acceptance of the fact that just because the goal of your life changes doesn't mean it has to end.

So what I mean is, it's a sad day for people to discover that things they have devoted their life to (quests, revenge, etc.) may be no longer valid, yet there is nothing else to replace that void, so they continue even though the only possible end is destruction and pain.


This is a very interesting observation you've made, Calandra--one which I never thought about when I was reading the book. You're absolutely right--in the face of changing times most of the characters do stubbornly stick to what they've committed themselves to, even if it no longer makes sense.

As you mentioned, this is a twist on most fantasy books, in which characters are fighting against a powerful and enduring evil and must stick to their quest no matter what, lest the world be overcome in darkness. In Tigana there is darkness, but instead there's a little bit in each person, and not many of them do a very good job of fighting it, because their view is focused on the larger "quest."

Ah, you've got me thinking about this book again. I think that's why Tigana is such a great book--it makes you think and think, and later makes you think some more. :)