[Kamakhya]

Wow, what a surprise and what a treat! Thank you for joining the discussion, Walter. While I wish that I could be completely positive, I am going to be brutally honest.

Overall, I enjoyed the book. I always like a book that can portray an alien species with some depth. The Zor were an interesting species. I liked their mystical nature and their slow and steady approach. I also enjoyed seeing how humans blundered in trying to understand them in terms of human reactions and morals. I also loved the wing speech. While I think I have read about other avian type cultures, the wing speech was really made them seem plausible.

That said, this novel did not really grab me. First off, I am not a big fan of military SF. The seemingly endless descriptions of the space craft in the beginning nearly caused me to stop reading the book. Had it not been for the fact that this was a book club book, I probably would have given up on it. I am glad I finished it, as I did enjoy the book once I got past the "boy" stuff :p

One thing that kind of bugged me was the whole "dark wing" and "bright wing" stuff. It basically was just way too like Christian Good and Evil, God and Satan, etc. I would have thought with a truly alien culture, they would have a truly alien metaphysics. On the other hand, if they were spoon-fed this by the mysterious other culture, then perhaps earth was spoon-fed christianity as well. That would make some sense.

While I understand this is just the first book of a four book series, I was frustrated by the confusion that Stone caused. While it was made clear he was a minion of the mysterious other culture, the part where he departed from the ship was confusing. There was talk of red, blue and purple "bands" of light. That seemed to indicate he was talking with the secret service, yet it was clear later in the book that he was not. At first I thought the secret service was also part of this mysterious other culture, but by the end it was made clear that they were not.

Speaking of the secret service, they seemeed to be in the employ of the emperor, yet they clearly acted without the emperor's authority. While I liked the concept of a secret group with great power more or less running the show, I found their motives and desires confusing and difficult to follow. I was disappointed that their role was not more clearly defined or explained.

I also never really understood why all the officers under Marais would follow him into battle with the Zor, knowing that they would be destroying their careers, before they even truly comprehended the Zor. Yes, they had Marais' book, but no one knew for sure that his theory was correct. Clearly, Torrijos was seriously apprehensive about committing genocide, yet, when he was forced to make a decision, he jumped right in behind a commandor that he thought might be a bit insane. It just didn't make a lot of sense to me.

Finally, I was equally confused by the trial. I mean, Marais comes back with proof that he was right and that his approach was not only appropriate but right. Why would it be so hard to explain to the people the nature of the Zor and the need for a brutal hand? Heck, it wasn't so alien that it was completely incomprehensible. Of course, the noble hero scapegoated by his own government was a better ending, but it just didn't sit right with me.

I liked the Solar Empire. I liked the politics and the structure of it. I liked some of the social commentary, particularly that involving our own brutal nature. I liked the alien culture and how it was developed. I also enjoyed the background material involving Torrijos. I also really liked the gender and racial equality of the main characters. It was done with a subtle touch.

So, despite the criticisms, I did enjoy the story and at times was finding it difficult to put down. Yet, I also found myself questioning many aspects and re-reading parts trying to understand how things happened. I don't mind that some aspects were not resolved, it is more that I did not find aspects believable or not explained well enough to make me want to read more. I may just to learn more about some aspects of the story, but I do not feel compelled to go out and buy the next book.

So, there is my brutally honest first thoughts. I feel bad not raving about the book with the author present, but I would rather be honest.

Kamakhya

[hotc]

First off, don't worry about "raving" in front of the author. If you aren't willing to take good comments with bad, you shouldn't be releasing books to the general public.

To answer the criticism of the first part of the book: you should know that the original first scene of the book was the interview between McMasters and Torrijos - the battle at the beginning was told in brief flashback. Because of the way the book is marketed, it was required that there be the sort of descriptive scenes which you found uninteresting.

i understand that you find the religion insufficiently alien. First, your description is a bit short of the mark: the zor believe in four forces (esesLi, esGa'u, esHu'ur, and esTli'ir) each of which provide a different part of the explanation of how the world works. The Dark Wing operates independently of either "good" or "evil". The exposition of these forces does make them more alien - at least that's my intention. Second, if you want to understand the zor culture better, I took on the task in the second book (at the request of people like yourself :-)).

The similarity of the colored bands to the colors of the Intel agents is what's called a "red herring". Except, in this case, the herring has six colors. As for acting without the Emperor's authority, there are numerous examples in human history in which an agency or governmental institution operates independent of its head; if it's intentional, it's called "plausible deniability" - if not, it's called "usurpation of power".

Next, Sergei has a conflict with Stone just before Marais commits a treasonable act: he tells Marais that he must make his intentions clear to the other officers before asking them to commit treason along with him. I thought that was fairly clear. He - like most of the other commanders - is forced to choose between the need to fulfill the mission and his oath to an Emperor who would thwart it. It is intended to play up the difference between the views of bucolic civilians and professional soldiers.

I have been told that scapegoating is actually quite common - particularly the use of Article 133, which is a part of the American UCMJ, by the way - when the military wants a desired outcome and can't find any other way to achieve it.

So, there are my replies. Thanks for your interest in the book.

Walter.

[FicusFan]

Hi Walter,

I just saw you a couple of weeks ago when you were the guest author at the Toadstool in Milford, NH. You were there for Dark Path, but you also talked about Dark Wing. I had not read either book at that time, though I had already purchased Dark Wing (but left it at home so was unable to have you sign it :mad: ). You were very fluent with the Zor names (of course I realize you made them up :cool: ) and I was really unprepared for what a mouthful they were when you confront them on the page (let alone try to pronounce them :eek: ).

My question is: did you have some specific language (on earth) that you were using as a guide or trying to emulate ? Also does the pattern of how the words start and are broken up mean something linguistically or culturally to the Zor ?

I also wondered if you had a specific bird or type of bird that you were using as the proto-ancestors of the Zor ?

The other question I have is about Stone and the intelligence agents. The way it was written he seemed to be one of them, but then it seems he wasn't. I read what you had written on the board previously about the color being a red herring, and I remember what you said at the Toad about other explainations (which are spoilers and I won't mention here), but at one time, perhaps before 'Stone' appeared and joined the fleet, was he ever one of the operatives of the intelligence group -- fooling them as well as the fleet ? I was unclear about that part.

Thanks.

PS: Will you be at Readercon this summer ? If so, I will remember to bring my DW book to get it signed. I am waiting for DP to go into paper before purchasing it.

[Rob B]

Ok, I haven't read the posts too in depth since I'm at about page 300 and don't want to spoil much.

I like the race of the zor...well detailed and constructed.

Stone...I'm glad Sergei finally stood up to him...Stone was really irking me as well.

Marias...I REALLY like his character thus far and it is hard to argue with his strategy. Very much of a darwinistic attitude towards the zor.

Overall, there are parts of the story that remind me a bit of Doc Smith's Lensmen books...the epic feel of the story, to the names of the characters.

[hotc]

Originally posted by FicusFan
My question is: did you have some specific language (on earth) that you were using as a guide or trying to emulate ? Also does the pattern of how the words start and are broken up mean something linguistically or culturally to the Zor ?

The apostrophes represent some sort of glottal or verbal break. I could imagine the wing movements corresponding with the stops.


I also wondered if you had a specific bird or type of bird that you were using as the proto-ancestors of the Zor ?


No, though an artist named Joe DeVito drew some great sketches that I intend to put up on my web site at some point. I thought of them as eagles with bat-like wings.


The other question I have is about Stone and the intelligence agents
. . .
but at one time, perhaps before 'Stone' appeared and joined the fleet, was he ever one of the operatives of the intelligence group -- fooling them as well as the fleet ? I was unclear about that part.


No, Stone has been an attache for Admiral Marais - there's a passage in the book where Marais explains to Sergei where he first met him.

Regarding ReaderCon (http://www.readercon.org), yes, I'll be there - just got my invitation to be part of the program. I look forward to seeing you there.

Regards,

Walter.

[Erfael]

Ficus, I took it to be that Stone had at least some connection to Violet. I didn't find it entirely clear which of them was in the other's pocket or whether Stone allowed Violet to think he was with him only to betray Violet in the end. ***just now seeing the response from Walter*** We realize that he was Marais' attache, but do we know why he killed Violet? That's where our slight confusion is there. We know they're connected if only in that Stone went and killed him, but I'm not sure exactly how.

Walter--"....my dear friend, Susan Stone, who has championed this book from its earliest incarnation." Like her so much she got the bad guy named after her?

Also, I'm curious what you mean when you say that the prologue was changed due to marketing reasons. Is that simply the old "Publishers want things to start of with sword fights or explosions," or is there something else to that? I'm just curious. I didn't mind the way the prologue bounced back and forth at all, but I think a Q&A could have been very interesting, too, leaving the reader with many questions since the people involved would have all known the in-material, thus making it not completely necessary to explain it all, but set up a lot of questions the reader would want answered.

I also always find that excerpts from documents and such at the beginning of a chapter add a lot of flavor to the world in a SF book. It seemed that all of the excerpts were relevant to the chapter that followed. Some chapters didn't have these lead ins, and I was always a little disappointed to get to a new chapter that didn't have one. I would have liked to have seen some that weren't necessarily on point just to flesh out the world even more. We're bright enough to figure out which ones are relevant to the flow and which ones are window dressing.

Erf.

[hotc]

Originally posted by Erfael
Ficus, I took it to be that Stone had at least some connection to Violet.


I leave it as an exercise to the reader. Stone clearly killed Violet - he used the special gun. Violet must've figured something out. . . but what it was, no one ever finds out (so far, at least) :-)


Walter--"....my dear friend, Susan Stone, who has championed this book from its earliest incarnation." Like her so much she got the bad guy named after her?


Good question. No, Sue has taken that pretty well . . . Stone was just the name I chose at the time. Sue read this book, its sequels, and the three books that chronologically precede it before almost anyone else.


Also, I'm curious what you mean when you say that the prologue was changed due to marketing reasons. Is that simply the old "Publishers want things to start of with sword fights or explosions," or is there something else to that?


Got it in one. My editor told me when he first saw the book many years ago, "if it's going to be a war book, it's got to have more war in it."

The editor did suggest the epigraphs at the beginning of the chapters, however. I particularly like the First Lord's appearance before a committee of the Assembly - it lets me explain how jump works without having to bore you with many pages of techblob.

Walter.

[Kamakhya]

Thank you Walter for the great response. I must admit, your response does give me some incentive to read at least the second book. :)

Walter states:
First off, don't worry about "raving" in front of the author. If you aren't willing to take good comments with bad, you shouldn't be releasing books to the general public.

That is a good approach. You can't please everyone all of the time! As I stated earlier, I am not a big fan of military sf, but I could enjoy other aspects of the book.

"raving" in this context is a good thing. I wanted to "rave" (e.g., wow, what a fabulous book. You must read it!) about this book with you in the audience.

To answer the criticism of the first part of the book: you should know that the original first scene of the book was the interview between McMasters and Torrijos - the battle at the beginning was told in brief flashback. Because of the way the book is marketed, it was required that there be the sort of descriptive scenes which you found uninteresting.

Yes, I understand. I gather that this book was marketed as military and hard sf. There are plenty of readers who really want to know how the ship is built, driven, etc. I am not one of them. :) As Erf mentioned before, the cover and comments on the cover left me none too excited. They promoted this sort of "hard sf" aspects.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind some discussion of the science involved (I wouldn't be into SF as much as I am if I couldn't handle scientific details) but, some of the descriptions seemed more like padding than contributing to story setting and/or plot. I enjoyed the history of the earth-zor conflict. That set up the story nicely.

i understand that you find the religion insufficiently alien. First, your description is a bit short of the mark: the zor believe in four forces (esesLi, esGa'u, esHu'ur, and esTli'ir) each of which provide a different part of the explanation of how the world works.

LOL...I knew you would pick up on that! You did mention the other two forces in book 1, but not in sufficient detail to make a mark on the reader. I caught the references, but they were so negligible that I paid them little attention. To be honest, it was very hard to grasp the meanings of the Zor language. A little glossary would have been very helpful. While you do a decent job of explaining the words and concepts, the average reader will forget what each word means or implies within 25 pages. :)

The Dark Wing operates independently of either "good" or "evil". The exposition of these forces does make them more alien - at least that's my intention.

I see what you mean. Thank you for clarifying this for me. I think that the importance you set on "esLi" as opposed to "esGa'u", in terms of the Zor themselves, reflects the dichotomy we see in Christianity. After all, what would god be without his fallen angel, satan; much like what would esLi, the bright wing, be without esGa'u, the dark wing. They both need each other to exist.

The similarity of the colored bands to the colors of the Intel agents is what's called a "red herring".

A nasty trick at that! :p

Next, Sergei has a conflict with Stone just before Marais commits a treasonable act: he tells Marais that he must make his intentions clear to the other officers before asking them to commit treason along with him. I thought that was fairly clear. He - like most of the other commanders - is forced to choose between the need to fulfill the mission and his oath to an Emperor who would thwart it. It is intended to play up the difference between the views of bucolic civilians and professional soldiers.

Ok, so for Sergei, completing the mission is more important than his personal qualms. I understood that. But, I just can't grasp it emotionally, nor does it make any logical sense. The military may work that way, but I sure don't! Maybe that is why I don't like military sf! :)

Surely, there are examples of military rebuking their commanding officers that they know are insane. Then again, look at Hitler's commanders. :eek: So, ok, I guess I see it, but it just doesn't sit right for me (pacifist that I am!).

I have been told that scapegoating is actually quite common

I have no doubt! You are right. To the average citizen, this would seem natural, but to the reader who has followed the events as they occurred it is a travesty! :)

Thanks again for the explanations and insights into your meanings and thought processes. I can see now that you are just too darn smart for your own good! :) You have some wonderful ideas and an intricate plot, but you are apt to lose your reader through intricate plot tactics. What seems clear to you may well be lost on the reader who is new to your universe. The language and concepts of the Zor were very complex and difficult to follow at times. The military motives were difficult to follow for this pacifist reader. You hinted at much, but left little to chew on. The concepts that were hinted at were too vague, they needed a little more explanation to get the reader to want to see where they went. This is hard to describe. I just don't know how to put it. No one wants concepts force-fed, yet they do want to understand the point of view. I can see it is a tricky balance.

Keep up the great work!

Kamakhya

[hotc]

Originally posted by Kamakhya
A little glossary would have been very helpful.

I offered to do this, and was discouraged from doing so - no maps, no glossaries, no appendices. Perhaps I should put a glossary up on the web site?



much like what would esLi, the bright wing, be without esGa'u, the dark wing. They both need each other to exist.


Small clarification. esGa'u is not the Dark Wing; he's the Deceiver, the Lord of Despite. He's in charge of the Bad Guys. The Dark Wing isn't one of them - not at all. It's important to understand that the zor differentiate between the force that destroys and the force of, to not put too fine a point on it, evil.


Ok, so for Sergei, completing the mission is more important than his personal qualms. I understood that. But, I just can't grasp it emotionally, nor does it make any logical sense. The military may work that way, but I sure don't! Maybe that is why I don't like military sf! :)


I can accept that you can't grasp it emotionally, but I differ whether it makes logical sense.

Look. War in and of itself is immoral. It involves destruction and killing, neither of which I advocate or encourage. I think I'm basically a pacifist at heart, whatever my writing may convey. I'm pretty sure I couldn't do what Sergei did, much less what Boyd did for a living.

Nonetheless, faced with a destructive, dangerous war that had been going on for longer than I'd been alive (Sergei is only a few years younger than I am right now), and seeing a solution at hand, I might be tempted to make sure it was carried through: if not for me, than for generations yet to come. That's the conundrum, and that's the line of thinking.

As for Hitler's commanders, most of them were willing to carry out the plan, but in some cases would have been more than willing to put a bullet through his head given the chance. The best commanders never got the chance.


Thanks again for the explanations and insights into your meanings and thought processes. I can see now that you are just too darn smart for your own good! :) You have some wonderful ideas and an intricate plot, but you are apt to lose your reader through intricate plot tactics.


Wait until you get to the third book; but thanks for the compliment. I assume that my readers are pretty smart too, and can keep up (or even guess ahead).

What seems clear to you may well be lost on the reader who is new to your universe. The language and concepts of the Zor were very complex and difficult to follow at times.


Every architect of a universe faces that. I could give you more details but it would mean sacrificing narrative continuity. As for the complexity of the zor language and culture - well, they're aliens - if they were too readily understandable you wouldn't find them alien enough.

Walter.

[Rob B]

Limited posting time the past couple of days, however I will post more when I finish the book and have a bit of time.

Walter, thank you so much for joining in the discussion.