[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Nimea
Ficus Fan,

sorry, wanted to answer your post earlier. Somehow time just slips by . . .

First: thanks ver much. Very interesting! :)
Second: now I only would be interested in what you think about it in context of this story - without the historical background. Just within this story.
Third: "skewed historical fiction" Mmh, well, that's among the reasons I like it. ;) She took what she liked and did it in her own way, not caring if it absolutely fits our own history but her intentions and the atmosphere. Without being illogical.
I am not very interested in historical fiction and usually I am thinking twice whether or not I will read an alternate Earth story.


Well, no more comments on this book? :(


Nimea,

Thanks.

ANF:

I can't really give an opinion divorced from the background that I know. All I can say is that when I saw it I didn't think anything of it. I don't think it has any bearing on whether he likes girls, or that he was able to fall in love with Kaede. I just thought it was what they (young boys/men of the village) did if there were no girls around or interested in them. If in the future he finds himself in a similar situation and Kaede and he are not together he might do the same thing again. I wouldn't find it a big deal. He might even seek out a male because he is in love with Kaede and doesn't want to become involved with another woman.

KD:
When I said Skewed Historical Fiction I didn't mean it as a criticism. I meant that it was history that didn't match our world, it was adapted for fantasy. When I was reading it I was reminded of Guy Gavriel Kay's The Lions of al-Rassan, though it is not of the same quality.

Overall I liked the book, but less at the end than at the beginning. It seemed like it was going to be original and fabulous but it didn't hold up during the reading. The book was really two stories welded together. JC wrote herself into a corner very early on. She had Phadre too happy with her odd family (her master and the other pro, the young man), and work off her contract too quickly. There was no conflict, and without conflict you don't have a story. So JC's solution was to massacre Phadre's odd family -- I didn't like that at all. The second part was a standard quest/adventure journey, not very original at all.

I liked the characters and most of the setting, but I expected much more based on how it started.

My complaint about her not doing the Willow World well was because she probably wanted to have Phadre sold off to an outsider, rather than to a house that specialized in pain, which is the more realistic outcome. Most probably didn't see it as a mistake, but because I knew what it was based on, it bothered me.

ANF:

I can't really think of anyhting else :(

Odd how there is more to talk about often when you don't like the book.

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Lani
I would agree with Nimea on the subject of Carey's world. When I read it I saw a lot of parallels in culture, history, even geography to our world. I don't think her world should be considered "bad" just because she used bits and pieces of ours to create her own pattern. Personally, I think she did a very good job out of it.



I never said it was bad, just skewed :)

Originally posted by Lani

As for ANF, the quality of the world seems something we might want to consider since it seems not to be a fantasy world at all. Would a world that is so similar to ours with maybe one or two little things different be considered a separate fantasy world? Or should it be judged by how well she mimicked feudal age in Japan? To tell the truth, the book seems barely a fantasy because of its only magical manifestation in presence of The Tribe. If it wasn't present, do you think the book would be considered a historical fiction? Of course there is also the plot that I would say follows fantasy tradition, but then can a book without the fantasy world, creatures, and magic be considered fantasy?

I think that the Tribe (Ninja's) are the main fantasy element. I wonder though if the hidden religion (possibly the historical incursion of christianity into Japan) will become more of a fantasy element in the rest of the series. It was the reason that Takeo's family and village was killed at the start of the book. The book also ended with religion -- when people were visting Lord Otori's grave and praying to him. I wonder if he will become part of the story again in ghost/spirit form. If the religion will become more important, stronger, and more active because of Takeo and Otori in the next two books. It seemed like Otori and others outside of the mountains practised it in secret.

Without the Tribe the book could have been seen as more HF than F, but it is not really meaty enough for HF. There isn't really a story to support HF. You have to set up the HF world and then do something with the characters. Possilby all three of LH's books would make one HF book. But even if all three were published as one HF book, it might still be shelved in SF&F, a lot of HF are at my local Barnes & Noble.

[ChrisW]

It was classed as literature in Australia on release but I think the Bookstores have woken up to it being fantasy now.

[Nimea]

Okay, where to start?
FicusFan, I almost guessed that you did not mean 'skewed' as bad. I just wanted to comment anyway. ;)

My question about any more comments was meant for everyone. Just seems like more people read it than those that voiced their opinion about it here . . .

About Kushiel's Dart, even if it is off topic:
You think she killed her family off just because she needed conflict? Mmh, I do not see it like that.
It would not have worked if those two men lived on. Why? Because Phédre would always have stood in Anafiel's shadow. She would have stayed a pawn despite everything. This way she suddenly stood on her own and could grow much more.

And if you see Carey's whole concept you really can't critizise her selling Phédre off to an outsider instead of another house. For one thing, the houses are not all friends among themselves. And their members are treated just as slaves in parts, like the selling (Phédre comments on that in Kushiel's Avatar). Paying the most - and thus getting rid off someone you don't want - got her in the hands of an outsider. Apart from that, if you have just one flaw - and we know the prick in her eye was considered just that - you are not allowed to perform the 'usual work' in a house. They did not even think to sell her to another house, because of that flaw!

So, only wanted to offer that view on it. ;)


Mmh, can't really decide as what Across the Nightingale Floor should be labeled.
The point about Christianity is interesting. In many reviews the Hidden are considered to be Christian-like. Could be, we will see.

And again back to the very first thing I asked about: Takeo's doings with other men. ;)
I just still feel that it was strange. It doen't feel right within this story, the way it was told. Maybe it's just that I consider it weird myself for someone so terribly in love to go and have sex with someone else.
Lord Otori swore not to lay with another woman - okay, not with another man ;) - and this part was missing in Takeo's love.
And okay, I like Phédre, a woman that constantly shares her bed with other men than her beloved Joscelyn, but there it was made part of the whole story in a way that even I - I am a very jealous person with a strict opinion what you can or should not do if you are in love/in a relationship ;) - went along with it.
But there it is again, the critique about the love story between Kaede and Takeo . . .


Btw, I am really interested in what you did not like about the book, Caldazar. Please try to remember the things that bugged you! :)

[Lani]

I really amn't sure about the Hidden being Christianity basically because of the whole peace and not hurting concepts. Christianity seemed to spill a whole lot of blood during middle ages for me to see it as one of those peaceful religions...

[Nimea]

Lani, but those where the Middle Ages and the CHURCH.
Christianity in its beginnings, and as I think at its roots, was exactly that: peaceful. (And in hiding. ;) )

Jesus never hurt anyone, nor did he pray killing. In fact, he contradicted the Old Testament in some things.

I could now say a lot of nasty things about church, but I won't out of respect for those who are faithful. But I think it so very sad, that the Christian religion is always and only judged by what evil things happened after someone found out about its potential for influence and power.

:)

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Nimea
Okay, where to start?
FicusFan, I almost guessed that you did not mean 'skewed' as bad. I just wanted to comment anyway. ;)


No Problem, I just wanted you to know what i meant :)

Originally posted by Nimea

My question about any more comments was meant for everyone. Just seems like more people read it than those that voiced their opinion about it here . . .



I agree. I have seen it listed at least once in the monthly reading, but that person didn't post here. Maybe s/he didn't want to talk about it. Who knows. The discussions are more interesting when there are a variety of opinions.

Originally posted by Nimea


About Kushiel's Dart, even if it is off topic:
You think she killed her family off just because she needed conflict? Mmh, I do not see it like that.
It would not have worked if those two men lived on. Why? Because Phédre would always have stood in Anafiel's shadow. She would have stayed a pawn despite everything. This way she suddenly stood on her own and could grow much more.




I do see it my way, but I also agree with you too !

Phedre could not have been the strong lead character with her master hovering over her shoulder. I just don't think JC had to kill them off is all. I think she could have had them: arrested, abducted, or disapear --leaving Phedre alone and forcing her to develop in the second part of the book. I just really liked the little family -- more as a unit than as individuals, and I felt sort of betrayed by the author when Phedre (and me the reader) came home and found them all dead. :mad:

Originally posted by Nimea

And if you see Carey's whole concept you really can't critizise her selling Phédre off to an outsider instead of another house. For one thing, the houses are not all friends among themselves. And their members are treated just as slaves in parts, like the selling (Phédre comments on that in Kushiel's Avatar). Paying the most - and thus getting rid off someone you don't want - got her in the hands of an outsider. Apart from that, if you have just one flaw - and we know the prick in her eye was considered just that - you are not allowed to perform the 'usual work' in a house. They did not even think to sell her to another house, because of that flaw!

So, only wanted to offer that view on it. ;)



I do understand her concept (perhaps too well), and still I do criticize her. JC made several choices that bugged me:

1. Even though the houses are not friends, they work together for business purposes, and they band together against outsiders. Thus they know each other and have developed business relationships, contacts, and spys :cool: , they would have been trying to find out what the others wanted most, and how much they would pay for it.

The idea that a good house (the one Phedre came from) didn't know the true value of its goods (Phedre) before it sold them, didn't seem realistic in such a tightly run, professional, and profit-oriented world.

2. I agree the proteges are slaves, but the house that raises/trains the best slaves, gets part of the glory and the acclaim. So if Phedre had been kept in the system, not only would her new house have been praised, but so would the house that trained her and cultivated her. Both houses would have turned that into not only money, but power too I think.

3. There was no flaw - which was the biggest stumbling block for me. The houses of pain would have known it was the mark of the god, (just as her master did) and so it was highly prized. Not only would they have wanted her, they would have paid top dollar for her, because she was the only one in the world.

To have her kicked out for being flawed, and then her master being the only one who knew, and him buying her and explaining it to everyone I found insulting, because it was so unrealisitic.

4. While there is direct competition with-in the floating world, the houses of pain don't really compete with those who don't do pain. Pain is a very specialized taste and people who want that are usually not interested in vanilla sex (no-pain) :) . So selling Phedre to a house of pain would not impact their draw or their clients anymore than selling her to an outsider.

I just couldn't swallow how she set this part of her world up. But I can understand that you saw it differently, and enjoyed it.

I didn't hate the book, but several of the issues pulled me out of the flow and the magic of the story.

Originally posted by Nimea


And again back to the very first thing I asked about: Takeo's doings with other men. ;)
I just still feel that it was strange. It doen't feel right within this story, the way it was told. Maybe it's just that I consider it weird myself for someone so terribly in love to go and have sex with someone else.

Lord Otori swore not to lay with another woman - okay, not with another man ;) - and this part was missing in Takeo's love.
And okay, I like Phédre, a woman that constantly shares her bed with other men than her beloved Joscelyn, but there it was made part of the whole story in a way that even I - I am a very jealous person with a strict opinion what you can or should not do if you are in love/in a relationship ;) - went along with it.
But there it is again, the critique about the love story between Kaede and Takeo . . .



I would agree with you that Otori and his lady love (Can't remember her name) seemed to have a much more real love affair than Takeo and Kaede. I thought it was very bittersweet and a palpable part of their story. I was very sad when they both died.:(

I guess I am more taken with Kaede's portrayal -- spunky young girl trying to survive in a hostile environment and live up to her and her families code of honor, than with her and Takeo's love. But I don't find that a bad thing, because they are both much younger than Otori and his lady, and because it was 'love at first sight' and so they don't really know each other yet. It may be a hot bright love, but can't yet be a deep love. I am fine with waiting for it to develop more in the next books. I don't see other people as being a part of it. Given the time period, Kaede may actually be forced to marry another, and I would not see that as lessening their love, just a part of their lives.

[Nimea]

Well, at least we two keep this discussion going. ;)

Just once more about Kushiel:
Ehm, on the first few pages it is made clear that Phédre was flawed . . . well, to make it short, the first few chapters it was - as far as I am concerned - very well explained why she was sold to Anafiel.
And I would not be too sure that Valerian House would have known Phédre's mark. It had been more than 100 years that the last anguissette was known, and that she was one of them was not even sure. Even so, it sounded like an anguissette in that House would not become such a great thing as Anafiel could make her - the House that sold Phédre was surely always known as selling her so wisely and preparing her the first years . . .
:) Just needed to say that.
Btw, I totally forgot that Phédre has a little brother or sister. Her mother was pregnant again when she gave her daughter away. Mmh, stumbled over that one and thought it to be curious.

Now to Across the Nightingale Floor:
Yeah, I agree. And I found Kaede interesting as well. Hope that she developes to be more free and more like a powerful woman, more like Lord Otori's lady love. She has the potential but she needs to work on it, really. ;)
Maybe the love will become something more deeply because of how they both develop apart from each other. Who knows what happens when they meet again . . .

It makes me curious about the next installment of the series, but it still is a flaw for me with this book.

I am also very curious about the Tribe and its role in the ongoing story. And what role will Takeo play within it? Will he change it? Is there more to their intentions?

:)

[Cygnus]

Okay.. finally finished! Unlike some of you, I liked the end of the book as much as I liked the beginning.

Lani- I agree with you that even though the plot was somewhat ordinary, the setting made all the difference to me.

FicusFan- I also really like the sparse, spare writing style. I listened to it on tape, so this was very evident.

I really enjoyed how Hearn used Takeo's torn loyalty to both the Tribe and the Otori Clan to provide an extra bit of tension to an already interesting story.

I was so delighted that Kaede killed the warlord (forgot his name) that I actually cheered while driving down the road. Talk about girl power! Hearn had written the perfect passage about the irony that this fragile, seemingly weak girl could kill this powerful man.

I was sad that Lord Otori and Lady Maruyama both died.. though I suppose it serves to create an more driven Takeo for the future books.

The next book in the series is Grass For His Pillow and is supposed to come out (in the U.S.) in October. I'm really looking forward to it!

[FicusFan]

I have two questions: in the US the first book in Trade Paperback had at the end a sample of the start of the next book. 1 or 2 chapters I think. I don't know if theyappear in books published in other countries or in other languages. So do others have these sample chapters and if so have you read them ?


My second question is about what is hinted at in the those chapters which start the next book. I don't want to go into it if people haven't got those chapters or read them, because I don't want to spoil anything. So I will wait to ask this question until I know if others have also read them.

In terms of the second book I actually have an ARC that I have had since just before we picked this for the discussion. I have been waiting to read it so I won't give anything away. I will probably start it in August when we move on to the next book.

Nimea on KD:

We just have to agree to disagree :) because I think the: 'its a flaw/its a flaw/ its a flaw/oops... I fooled you it isn't a flaw' is an authorial cheat and definately wins the author 20 lashes with a wet noodle in my book.:p