[Cadfael]

In my Books... the love of (http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000035.html) topic, I mentioned that I very rarely loan out books, and then only to friends I know I can trust. During subsequent replies, many other members said they loaned out books... here is my question:

Are we ripping the authors of these books of?

For instance... If I refuse to lend a friend a book, and he really wants to read it... he will go out and buy it, thus the author will benefit. If I loan it out, the author only gets the benefit from me buying the book.

I don't pirate software, or use pirated software. If I like a CD, I do not ask a friend to 'burn-it' for me, nor do I let other people borrow my CD's.

But I do loan out books on occasion. I have about 5 E-books on file... but I do not plan to pass them onto friends (now that this has crossed my mind), but I will give them the URL to get them.

I know, you can get books on loan from a library, but there must be a special procedure that allows this??

Thoughts...

[This message has been edited by dennizm (edited July 30, 2001).]

[Erebus]

Good question, Dennizm.

I guess that this is something which can't be easily controlled. If someone buys a copy of a book, they could lend it to many, which in turn means that many get to read the work without actually having to purchase it. Of course, both the publisher and writer lose out on royalties when this happens, but at least someone has purchased the original copy!

As far as libraries go, as I understand it, various countries have different registration procedures that must be in place before libraries can purchase books. In the US, this is LOC registration, (Library of Congress registration, which the publisher or author must arrange)and without this, US Libraries won't buy the book. The registration process then gives the libraries the right to lend the books etc. Perhaps others here will know more about the US process?

In Australia, we have National Library registration, whereby books are listed with the National Library in Canberra in much the same way as the LOC. Personally, I think inclusion in a library is great exposure for an author and will probably lead to actual books sales, especially for those who don't want to wait until the book finally hits the library shelves!

I rarely lend out books myself, for the prime reason that others quite often don't treat them with the same respect, something we all touched on in the other thread. But I guess, in short, if we haven't actually paid for what we read, other than from a library, then yes, I believe the authors are being robbed of their royalties!


[This message has been edited by erebus (edited July 30, 2001).]

[Alucard]

Well, I understand the point, but don't totally agree. I have found that by me lending out books, I have gotten people not only interested in those particular books, but reading in general. If the people truly enjoy the work, they will more than likely buy the books for themselves and possibly buy them as gifts for others.
For instance, I let my friend borrow the first harry potter book, telling him that they were actually good books regardless of your age. He loved it. A few days later, he went out and bought the entire series, and has told me that he plans to give out many of these books to some of his friends a gifts. He also told me, that had I not lent the book to him, he doubted that he would have ever picked it up on his own, no matter how good I told him it was.
So why I can see your concern, I have found that the more widespread it becomes, the more it will sell. Because as bad as it sounds, most people won't go out and get books if they aren't already into them. It's much easier to just turn on the t.v.

[Shehzad]

I must say that I have a lot to say about copyright issues. Please keep in mind where I'm writing from before judging... http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

Now while I agree absolutely that people should get paid for their creations, it has to be put into perspective. The average per annum income in Pakistan is $300 or thereabouts - approximately $50 a month. The average paperback costs $10 or so (including shipping costs, duties etc.)- how many do you think I can afford to buy on my pocket money which is barely $8 a month?? What is happening is that third world countries are being deprived of literature and music by excessively high pricing, and that is why piracy comes in. As much as I admire my favourite musicians, and as much as they moan about "lost revenues", I don't see them starving by my buying pirated stuff. By pricing a CD at twice my or most of my friends' average allowance, they're just ensuring that no-one buys the original items. Why buy a $15 CD when the same CD with the same quality is available for less than $1, or can get it burned for even less?? The choice is between not getting the CD or getting the pirated one - and I'd rather take the second option.

A similar situation exists with books. Due to the prohibitively high costs, no-one buys books here. People just do not read becvause they can't afford to. It sets up a vicious cycle - books too expensive - no-one buys - no-one buys - no more books. Most of the books I have are bought from second hand stores or brought as presents from relatives in the US or UK. I have never - NEVER - bought a brand new book here since they're too expensive. I have, on the other hand, bought pirated copies of some mainstream bestsellers (Grisham, Clancy, Archer, and a few classics) because they cost less than 1/10th what the imported books cost.

One way that I've heard about to avoid this situation is used in India. Books, CDs, movies are reissued after being locally printed for a fraction of the international price, but the copyright holder still gets his royalties. Until books, CDs and movies become more affordable, I won't subscribe to the intellectual marginalization of the third world and will continue to call myself a proud pirate. Either they become less greedy, or stop moaning about "lost revenue..."

Thanks.

[Cygnus]

As a student studying to be a librarian in the U.S. I've been innundated with copyright information. After all, we're supposed to be the copyright police for the general public. One of the most important concepts that is law in the U.S. is First Sale. This means after the first sale the buyer can do whatever they want with the book. Loan it out, sell it to a used bookstore, use it as a coaster.. whatever. The government can't step in unless you start printing the book out and trying to sell mass copies of it. Without First Sale, libraries in the U.S. would be in a lot of trouble!

Libraries in other countries are charged a lending fee which does go back to the author. This fee is usually paid by the government, but in the U.S. it might have to be paid by the patron. Publishers are pushing to get this sort of system started here in the U.S., but I don't think library patrons will go for it. Enough people (and libraries) buy books as it is, so I don't think that those who loan books out are significantly cutting into the income of authors.

[voider]

I would tend to think that loaning out books(from libraries or a friend) as the best advertizing money could buy!I would bet it would assure me of a sale or sales in the long run.The people that read these loaned books may love it so much they may buy a new undamaged one for their fine collection.If they cant afford one at new prices they can always put it on their wish list(Birthday,Christmas,ect.)for others to buy them.Plus their work gets to people that may have never herd of that book or author!

[Rob B]

As long as you aren't SELLING the books and making a monetary profit from friends it doesn't really matter.

Hell, look at all the USED bookstores.

[Duarh]

There are always the cases when buying books simply is not possible where you live. For instance, I have only managed to accumulate something like 60 SF\F books over the years, occasionally finding them in bookstores or rarely ordering them over the net. One must consider the fact that people in many countries are not affluent enough to buy even american paperbacks (russian HARDCOVERS cost about 5 times less. . .). Applies to me too, as IŽd have a much greater library if I had the money. So. . .I just lend out about everything I have. I like introducing people to fantasy and making them fans.

Duarh

[Giarc]

Interesting post Shezhad. Part of me wants to agree with you but another part objects. I guess the question has to be do the authors/publishers of a book have some kind of moral obligation to support the 3rd world? Certainly some people insist on wealthy governments doing this very thing with cancelling 3rd world debt. If that argument is correct, then perhaps it devolves down to the individual as well. I dunno. Personally I think the argument is flawed, even if it does have some emotional appeal.
I come from NZ. This used to be a first world country and now, in real terms, exists as a 2nd world country economically (IMO). The prime reason for this fall is a crippling level of foreign debt incurred during the 1970's by one idiot prime minister. Why is it fair that 3rd world countries get their debt forgiven and 2nd world countries don't? Even when I know a plethora of NZ'ers that individually sponsor children/families in 3rd world countries. Sure you can justify it on humanitarian grounds where basic commodities of life are at risk (food, water, shelter), but I don't think you can based on luxury items such as fictional books, cd's, computer software. In NZ books cost about double what they do in the USA (in real terms) and the average wage is lower than in the USA (also in real terms). Copyright law is strictly enforced there and I've never heard anyone legitimise piracy as a means of redressing 3rd world issues.
India's policy makes sense to me. Piracy just reminds me of my mother telling me that 'two wrongs don't make a right'. I do believe that hard work should be rewarded and authors are entitled to their due. Poverty is an ugly and unfortunate legacy of the world. Stealing increases when there is poverty and that's a fact. But condoning theft is not a solution IMO, fixing poverty and its root causes is the only real answer. Poverty will always be with us so long as populations continue to grow unchecked, religious and ideological wars have precedence in country budgets, and as long as corporations continue to operate on short-term profit imperatives.

Of course, that's just my opinion for what little it's worth. Thanks for making me think Shezhad. http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Shehzad]

Aaah, an interesting response by Giarc. Now if only someone could get my name right... http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

luxury items such as ... computer software

Do you seriously believe that computer software is a luxury item in today's world? Computers are not only prevalent, but a necessity worldwide. From the stock exchange to hospitals, computers are used EVERYWHERE... And the cost of buying a computer in Pakistan more than DOUBLES if you install even basic software. Who complains about lost revenue?? Bill Gates - who has enough money to pay off our foreign debt! I find it hard to sympathize with him, as with Metallica, sitting in their private jet, moaning about how Napster deprives them of revenue.

About books: its not just fantasy novels I'm talking about here. My medical textbooks cost something like $50-$100 each... do you think we should be deprived of those too? Recently some foreign companies like McGraw-Hill and the Oxford University Press have initiated a crackdown against pirated medical books and reissued their books for about half their international price, but most people I know still can't afford them.

the question has to be do the authors/publishers of a book have some kind of moral obligation to support the 3rd world
No they may not, but if they want to sell their books, then they should price their books according to the market. That is what I have been saying all along. I mentioned the Indian model as a viable, working model that should be emulated in other places. Its up to companies to do it, and until they do, I see no alternative for the 3rd world than to go on as they have.

See, these items may be "luxury" items to us, but remember that they are everyday, commonplace items in the West. THAT is what I mean by intellectual marginalization -"look people, you can't afford this, so don't come near it..." That is not an attitude I am prepared to stand for. Its a global village. We get MTV here... what do you think will happen if your average teenager sees a song on TV but when he goes to get the CD he can't? What do you think he will do? How do you think he will feel?

Poverty will always be with us so long as populations continue to grow unchecked, religious and ideological wars have precedence in country budgets, and as long as corporations continue to operate on short-term profit imperatives.
BINGO! Now if only we could figure out a way to deal with all that!

[This message has been edited by Shehzad (edited August 03, 2001).]