[Nimea]

FicusFan,
look here (http://www.jacquelinecarey.com/index.html) and here (http://www.therealjacquelinecarey.com/).
Two different Careys. Reading 'our' Careys 'News and Buzz' entries you might even find a comment.

And according to her bio 'our' Carey was born 1964 - not that young.

Oh, and why can a debut novel (mind, she wrote short stories, essays and a non-fiction book about angels before) not be written so well?
Why the doubts?

Apart from that: still have no time to properly post about the novel . . . :(

[ChrisW]

Heh even amazon gets them messed up. I just recieved a email from them about J Careys new book because I had purchased her books in the past. Wrong Carey though.

Spooky!:eek:

[Shehzad]

Whew. First day off in the last 10.

I too thought the first half of the book was exceptional. Although Joscelin indeed whined a little too much, I quite liked his character... perhaps a whiny version of Caine...?

Phedre, however, got a little too frantic towards the end. That was kind of a let-down, but by then I was already hooked.

[Eventine]

perhaps a whiny version of Caine...?

Hmm....He fights with daggers and kicks arse, but that's about where the similarity ends. I thought the same thing, but trust you to bring it up though ;)

[Aoibheil]

It's been quite a while since I read this book, I bought it when it first came out, and I have since read the following two books. Personally I really liked the series. I thought Carey's world was both interesting and original.

As for some peoples comments that the prediliction for S & M in her books was rather unbelievable... only two of the 13 houses actually dealt in S & M, and it is made clear in the book that not everyone is into it (Jocelyne is not, for example).

As for Jocelyne being whiny, I actually thought Carey did a good job with him. After all, how would expect someone to react when he grew up being trained to be celibate and to live a rather disciplined and deprived life... and then for no reason he can understand he is sent to defend someone who embodies pretty much everything he thought was wrong. He was torn away from the life he wanted and forced into one he didn't... and then to make matters worse he finds himself attraced to Phedre and actually betrays his vows with her, forever banishing himself from the brotherhood that meant everything to him. All in all, I'd say he's entitled to be somewhat whiny, and that he wouldn't be as believable a character had he simply accepted it all stoically. Plus, in the next two books his character really develops, and he manages to come to terms with his life a little better.

I also really enjoyed the love/hate relationship Phedre had going with Melisandre. I thought that was definately a unique twist to the normal antagonist/protagonist relationship... that Phedre's enemy was someone that she was undeniably attracted to, and that that attraction was somehow beyond her power because Melisandre was a scion of the god/angel that had marked Phedre as his own. Definately a unique angle, imo.

I also thought Carey's writing style was very absorbing, and I quite enjoyed the way the world, politics, and mystery unfolded. And, to top it off, I liked how Carey ended the series....

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Nimea
FicusFan,
look here (http://www.jacquelinecarey.com/index.html) and here (http://www.therealjacquelinecarey.com/).
Two different Careys. Reading 'our' Careys 'News and Buzz' entries you might even find a comment.

And according to her bio 'our' Carey was born 1964 - not that young.

Oh, and why can a debut novel (mind, she wrote short stories, essays and a non-fiction book about angels before) not be written so well?
Why the doubts?

Apart from that: still have no time to properly post about the novel . . . :(

Thanks Nimea for the links. I did see the picture for the Carey with the Crossly's Baby book. she looks thinner and darker haired than what I remember of the other Carey from the Locus picture. Although it seems from her web page that Crossly's Baby is the only actual book she has published (no others are mentioned).

I skimmed through 'our' Carey's News and Buzz, but was not actually interested enough in her to wade through what she wrote... sorry.

I think of writing as I do playing an instrument, and usually you get better with practice - which was why I thought the book was too well written to be a debut. But if she has done other stuff that would explain her skill.

[Shehzad]

Originally posted by Aoibheil
As for Jocelyne being whiny, I actually thought Carey did a good job with him. After all, how would expect someone to react when he grew up being trained to be celibate and to live a rather disciplined and deprived life... and then for no reason he can understand he is sent to defend someone who embodies pretty much everything he thought was wrong. He was torn away from the life he wanted and forced into one he didn't... and then to make matters worse he finds himself attraced to Phedre and actually betrays his vows with her, forever banishing himself from the brotherhood that meant everything to him. All in all, I'd say he's entitled to be somewhat whiny, and that he wouldn't be as believable a character had he simply accepted it all stoically. Plus, in the next two books his character really develops, and he manages to come to terms with his life a little better.


Having only read Kushiel's Dart, I can't comment on the sequels. Strictly from the first book's point of view, Joscelin does seem a little whiny. I guess how believeable and/or annoying the character seems to you depends on the individual reader. I kind of liked him; he was an interesting twist on what could so easily have been a fantasy stereotype. However, I would've liked to see a little more of him in the last 1/3rd or so, where his importance sort of faded. Phedre was brilliantly written throughout, and she had a definite feeling of "growth" through the course of the book. The Phedre we see on page 1 and the one we see in the last chapter are different from having passed through all the trials and tribulations, and I thought that well done.

Melisandre is a character I'm somewhat ambivalent about. I, too, never understood what power she has over Phedre. Having said that, the effects of that power were shown fairly well, I thought. Also, she was very different from the stereotypical fantasy villain- another plus in my book.

[FicusFan]

It has been a while since I read the book, but my take on the Phedre/Mellisandre connection has to do with the S&M current supposedly running through the book.

Because of Phedre's attraction to pain/submission she is drawn to Mellisandre who ultimately wants to destroy her. Not that Phedre actually wants her to do that, or will let her. She is thrilled by the danger, by the possiblity that Mellisandre will know better than anyone how to use her, and give her the exquisite agony she lives for; by the possiblity of just letting go and allowing herself to become completely controlled by Mellisandre. She also knows that Mellisandre is unlikely to back-off or respect any kind of safe-word. Mellisandre is the real thing, where most of those she beds down with are just dabblers.

That is just my take on it anyway, mostly from actually reading in the genre, Carey doesn't do a great job of expressing those ideas to people who don't have that previous reading experience.

[Nimea]

Trying to take in all the posts . . . mmh, anything more to be contributed by me? . . .

Melisande: Aoibheil pointed it out already, but again – Melisande is a true heir of the line descanding directly from Kushiel. That’s why she is the perfect tormentor for Phedre. All of the Kusheths have a talent for that, just like the Duc de Morhban, and Melisande is the most formidable of that family.
And I don’t think Melisande wants to destroy Phedre or would not accept the safe-word – for she does. Well, she would destroy that part of Phedre that makes her head-strong woman, a woman that acts - but she would do it because she understands what Phedre craves for deep inside and in that life as a slave for Melisande Phedre indeed would be happily lost. Melisande understands much better what the safe-word means and she would always back away and respect it.
That’s making the relationship so difficult and dangerous for Phedre and yet so fascinating.

In another thread FicusFan and I talked about those things he criticizes, look here (http://www.sffworld.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5902). So I don’t really want to repeat it [I am tired but happy that at last I am able to post this, so please forgive me my laziness], but say this: would Anafiel have stayed alive, the story would have run a very different way. He would have been the one who decided, maybe even the princess would have listened more to him instead of really deciding on her own. If e.g. he had been kidnapped – than Phedre would have tried everything to get him back. But that’s not the storyline – she only tries to get her best friend back during the next two novels. ;o)

Apropos, Hyacinthe: Someone wondered why he had to stay on that island. Well, because of the overall plot. See Kushiel’s Avatar. ;)
But he had to stay instead of Phedre, because he answered the riddle of the Master of the Straights even more exactly than her. He used his dromonde and looked into the past, seeing things Phedre could not guess.
I liked that mystery about the Master, that little magic part of the story. And it was interesting to see it happen that way because Hyacinthe is the only other man that was a rival to Joscelin.

Joscelin: Yeah, he was a bit difficult – I never really liked him at first, but he grew on me during the next two novels. And I never disliked him very much, because a) Phedre loved him and because of that I cared for him and b) I understood very well the problems he had. He was/is one of the truest Cassalines (probably ever) and every time he broke his vows, every time he got into conflict with his believes . . . aaaah, poor boy.
And are they a couple that can work? The question of a prostitute as partner aside, yes. Phedre might be an anguissette and longs for pain, but he is the first one she took to her bed on her own choice, free of any contract, he loves her and would do everything for her and don’t forget the pain she experiences because of that relationship. But that is further explored in the later books – and leads to a beautiful scene in Kushiel’s Avater. *sigh* And again, she is not purely a victim, that is shown in that relationship as well.

I just love this trilgy.

Ehm, Phedre chose to return to her life as a courtesan at the end of the book, Lucky Joe? I might remember it all wrong, but isn’t that happening at the beginning of the second book not at the end of the first? The first chapter of Kushiel’s Chosen is at the end of Dart, at least in my copy of the book . . .
Apart from that, I can only say that ‘that’s what I am’ was very believing to me.

FicusFan, some questions:
Why ‚sorry’? I just pointed that ‚News and Buzz’ out because she gave the link to the other JC there, it was not meant to make you read and enjoy everything there. (Btw, I like JC. Her news every month are interesting and she seems to be a very nice and funny person. :p )
Then, what exactly do you mean with “. . . mostly from actually reading in the genre, Carey doesn't do a great job of expressing those ideas to people who don't have that previous reading experience.”? Got me a bit confused. And I don’t know a lot about S&M and am not interested in it, but for me Carey made everything quite understandable. :confused:
And, last but not least, you stated that Carey patterned her Night Court on the Japanese prostitute system . . . I am just wondering: I never read anything where she says that as well, or do you can point something out for me? Or is it just that you see parallels? Really, just wondering, just curious.

:)

Sorry for any misspelling and/or grammatic errors or confusing sentences, I am tired and don't want to read through it. Only want to be done with it. ;)

[Shehzad]

Originally posted by Nimea
Trying to take in all the posts . . . mmh, anything more to be contributed by me? . . .

Melisande: Aoibheil pointed it out already, but again – Melisande is a true heir of the line descanding directly from Kushiel. That’s why she is the perfect tormentor for Phedre. All of the Kusheths have a talent for that, just like the Duc de Morhban, and Melisande is the most formidable of that family.
And I don’t think Melisande wants to destroy Phedre or would not accept the safe-word – for she does. Well, she would destroy that part of Phedre that makes her head-strong woman, a woman that acts - but she would do it because she understands what Phedre craves for deep inside and in that life as a slave for Melisande Phedre indeed would be happily lost. Melisande understands much better what the safe-word means and she would always back away and respect it.
That’s making the relationship so difficult and dangerous for Phedre and yet so fascinating.


That's an interesting take on the Melisande theory, and it kind of makes sense-- in a convoluted kind of way. I think its key to understanding the book to understand the relationship between Phedre and Melisande.