[Eventine]

This thread is partially inspired by Kaz's topic on African fantasy, Nimea's topic on fantasy novels in other countries and some of the Kushiels Dart Book club discussion.

And my question is this:
Why do we see the same cultural, religous and geographical templates being used over and over? Is it a cop out by the authors, or do the readers want the same old gear served up every time?

I'll start by discussing cultural templates - It seems to me a lot of fantasy out there is based around medieval England. You know, knights, castles, catapults, the whole arthurian period without (or sometimes with) king Arthur. We get a few sub branches of this where we see some medieval France, Spain, Japan, etc but it's still pretty limited in terms of the cultural templates being used.
If authors are going to model cultures from those on this planet why not vary it a bit more? Throw in some South American, Pacific or African settings? Or vary the time period - jump forward or backward a few hundred years and give us a victorian or bronze age setting.

But why model it after the cultures we've seen so far? Why not invent your own? Is it too much work? too big a distraction from the story?

The same old christian variants always seem to come up as well. Subtly changing the names or a few plot points of a religion seems to be popular with fantasy authors. I'll admit this isn't as prevelant, but it reminds me again of the tendency of fantasy authors to take something from the real world and twist it a bit to become fantasy. Why not invent your own religion? Or even copy a different one?

Geographical - I mainly get bugged by this one because I live in the southern hemisphere, but why is it always cold in the north and hot in the south (ie a northern hemisphere climate). Even Australian authors have this geography, which makes me begin to wonder if they aren't getting pressure from the publishers to standardise their product for the American audience (and don't say it wouldn't happen - we've all heard the rumours about why Erikson wasn't published in the US). Give me a southern hemisphere climate! Or even better, invent a world that doesn't have hemispheres. How about a flat world, or an extremely giant planet where all the cities are built on the backs of immense buffalo and the only communication is via carrier pigeon, or an underwater world?

So, that's my rant. I think that in a genre labelled fantasy, we're not seeing near enough of the fantastic.

Here's a few books that come to mind that contain some original elements (or they seemed so to me, but I'm not the most widely read guy going around).

Tad Williams - Otherland - Via his virtual reality setting Tad gets the chance to construct some reasonably original settings. My favourite is the world that is one giant house.

Weis & Hickman - Deathgate - We get 5 worlds here, each with an interesting concept. One is a giant labyrinth, another is a machine floating in the air, another is a giant block off ice with a sun at the centre and habitable moons, another is a giant sphere with a sun at the centre and the last is a gian rock riddled with caverns where the inhabitants live.

China Mieville - The Scar - China presents us with the city of Armada, a floating city made up of thousands of boats all tied together.

Kate Elliot - Crown of Stars - Pretty standard fantasy fare except at one stage in the later books we get a peek at bronze age culture.

Ursula Leguin - In the third Earthsea book we are introduced to a culture where the people spend most of their lives travelling the


Can anyone suggest anything else with some original elements?

[Bond]

I think you are being a little harsh Eventine. Take for example something supposedly generic like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time as insinuated by some. While having a predominantly medieval European look and feel has some really interesting departures. Wouldn't the contrast between the Age of Legends and the current timeline satisfy your yearning for some contrast in historical perspective? Are the Aiel, Seanchan, Athan Miere not exotic enough? Is the absence of a tangible religion apart from the universally accepted clash between the Dark One and the Dragon in all societies not a bit unusual? Even your geographical comments don't necessarily apply. It might get cold in the Northlands but The Blight as I recall lies even further to the North and is if I recall correctly known to have an almost tropical climate.

I also think a lot of your comments are indirectly criticism of the semantics involved in the present classification of fantasy works. The current nomenclature and classification system doesn't make sense. I for one think Sci-Fi should be properly classified as a subgenre of a more broadly understood Fantasy heading. Simply put your comments on the lack of variety in fantasy is a result of how fantasy is classified. Most of the fantastic works that don't take place in a medieval setting have an increased tendency to be classified as sci-fi.

[ChrisW]

Got to agree with Bond. Otherland for example is classifed as sci-fi not fantasy by most people from what i've seen.

I also find it strange you had Elliott in your list as her setting virtually fits the template your complaining about more than most authors. Perhaps because you enjoyed it more than others the template didn't bother you as much?:confused:

[Eventine]

I haven't read any of Robert Jordan's work so I can't really coment there Bond.

Interesting point about genre classification though. I'm not sure I 100% agree with it, but the fact I've only read about 4 sci fi series prevents me from arguing.
I don't read much sci fi so I'd be interested in some novels that you feel have been nudged into there that fit outside the stock standard fantasy definition.
Maybe it is a matter of marketing - maybe I'm missing out on what I want because I haven't been reached by it's marketing....

As I mentioned, I don't think we're seeing enough of the fantastic in our fantasy, and I'd like to know why. I think I'm going to pop over to the creative authors thread and write a shopping list...

[Nevyn]

Gene Wolfe's The Book Of The New Sun would probably fit the bill perfectly here . I know many believe it to be sci-fi , I personally believe it is fantasy .
Have you tried any of the older writers like Eddison or Dunsany ? I can honestly see what it is you're looking for and i'm sure it exists , just not in great number !

I haven't read anything by this author , but he does look interesting click here (http://www.richardharland.net/)

[Iskaral Pust]

I do see where you are coming from Eventime, but also I have to disagree that fantasy is majorly lacking in inspiration. For example Erikson's Malazan Empire is loosely based around Rome, yet to call it unoriginal is complete rubbish. A book in my mind can be a very blatent rip-off and still be very good - Gemmell's Rigante series. Those are just my opinions so I'll give a couple of suggestions:
Raymond E Fiest - Empire Trilogy.
Ricardo Pinto - Stone Dance of the Cameleon.
*Both set in very cruel rigid socities, at are diffenitly not European in origin*
Across the Nightingale Floor (can't remember authors name - check book club section) - A Japanese socity.

Stonehenge by Bernard Cornwell - set in our world but right back in the stone age and also a genuinely enjoyable read.

Eric Van Lustbader - the Pearl Saga - a world unlike anything I've seen before in fantasy.

[Eventine]

I also find it strange you had Elliott in your list as her setting virtually fits the template your complaining about more than most authors

Cald,
In that list I was more mentioning original elements (I did start my description of her with "standard fantasy fare"). I thought her use of the bronze age was what stood out as very original - not the rest of the series.

Nevyn,
It's funny you should mention Richard Harland. I saw his work down the bookstore a week or two ago and thought about picking it up, except it was still in trade format.

In terms of the topic, I probably didn't mean to come across as strongly as I did. I didn't mean to imply that the whole genre was deriviative and allelements were copied from templates. Most books out there do have lots of original elements, and I always enjoy stumbling across them. I just wish there was more of them.
I intended for this topic to be a discussion on why these templates are popular and what creative elements of stories everyone enjoyed, but I obviously didn't convey my meaning very well.

[neologik]

I think a lot of it boils down to a couple simple factors:

1) Western European settings are 'popular' with readers, as evidenced by WHAT SELLS.

2) Western European settings are what Western European writers know best.

I've found that if you read a multitude of Fat Fantasy novels all at once, the 'worlds' seem to blend and blur into one massive generic Fantasyland. There's nothing that really sticks out as being original or intriguing or even mildly innovative.

Which may be why I find most Fat Fantasy so boring these days....

--gabe chouinard
hypermode (http://hypermode.blogs.com)
s1ngularity (http://www.sfsite.com/singularity)

[ChrisW]

In that list I was more mentioning original elements (I did start my description of her with "standard fantasy fare"). I thought her use of the bronze age was what stood out as very original - not the rest of the series.


You be easy to please then if all it takes is parts of one book in a 6 book series.:)

[Eventine]

Originally posted by Caldazar


You be easy to please then if all it takes is parts of one book in a 6 book series.:)

LOL
If only it was that easy.

And stop taking me so literally ;)