[Nimea]

Time goes so by so quickly . . . :(

I just wanted to chime in here because of what Erfael wrote.
I had that very same problem with Erienne. At the beginning I felt with and for her, but than she acted in ways I could not really sympathize with anymore.

There are some more occasions that conflicts are talked about but then they just disappear . . .


Another thing - I still want to write more on how I rate this book, but not now - that I would try to throw into the discussion here is one thing that totally bugs me!
The Rage
(You can read more on that in the 'James Barclay'-thread as well and NOM was so kind to answer my rant. ;) )

Is noone else here who had problems with this action?
It was well-written and drove the story onwards - still, I could not believe that an experienced group of mercs and with all their knowledge of the situation would do something like that.
It really would have been even more curious if the kids had survived that . . .

Off to bed now. . .

[Erfael]

Now that you mention it, Nimea, I guess in context it's a little shakey. I can see it working fine against untrained or low morale enemies. Against people who are supposedly trained soldiers, no, i guess it doesn't make sense. And I suppose it does seem like a good way to get those kids killed. I would have really expected at least trying to secure her family before raging.....perhaps sneak then rage. I guess I'm off to read his explanation in the JB thread.

[FicusFan]

Ok my take on Dawnthief.

I was not real thrilled by the choice, but I said I would give it a try. So I ordered it and read it. I was told the first 40 pages were not so good, so I was willing to overlook that.

I really liked the prolog. I cared about the woman and her children, and what happened to them. It was well written, and it sucked me in. It was also a small snapshot of everything that you should have in a story: background, description, action (if a little muted), character development, self-reflection, and dialog (though again in a small amount). It was interesting and didn't take up that much space. So, why oh why, couldn't the rest of the book have included these items ?

The first 60 pages were mostly a hodge-podge of one or two sentence descriptions from a third-person narrator, even though s/he was often 'behind the eyes' of different specific characters. Sometimes several in the same short paragraph. Why didn't we get to spend much time with any one person ? I realize that the jumping around gave a very fast pacing to the story, but so what. It was the beginning of the story, we were trying to learn the ropes of the world and the story, get to know the characters, and try to like them. Fat chance, I couldn't even figure out who was talking, or interacting most of the time. Then to make matters worse, instead of names, JB often used labels for the characters: The barbarian, the elf, the mage, the Raven. I realize these descriptions were in the DP, but I am not going to flip back every sentence to figure it out. They distanced me from any sense that these were people rather than notes on a page.

Why was there no POV character at the start ?

Just when I thought it couldn't get better, and that I was going to have to kill myself: Hirad walked into the Dragon. I loved that scene. I was really fascinated to see what the dragon would do, and what would happen to Hirad. I started to be able to tell him apart from the rest of the crew, because of this scene. It didn't take long, it wasn't boring. So why when the author can obviously write this well, and tell a story this well, does he choose not to ??

That led to what I thought might be a real interesting look at the typical hack and slash fantasy quest: Hirad and company start talking about being over-the-hill. I thought it would have been a wonderful way to add depth to the story if they were dealing with being the best, but also on the cusp of being has-beens due to age and mileage. But that was quickly wiped away, and just used to justify more hacking and slashing. People in the Raven kept getting killed. Why even have them in the first place ? I didn't really care except that it was already hard to keep track of who was who. If it was an attempt to milk some emotion out of me for the characters, it didn't work.

The exception was Sirendor - who seemed to be escaping from the background. He also seemed to be very friendly with Hirad, and all of a sudden he is given a superflous girlfriend and then rendered safely dead. Is that a terrified male heterosexual reaction or automatic homophobia ? who knows, but just when Sirendor seemed to become interesting, he is killed. That seemed to be the theme of the book, just when something might develop into a new and interesting path, it is killed and standard fantasy is shoveled in.

There seemed to be a lot of time wasted on physical descriptions, and clothing. I found it wasteful because we didn't get character development, and we almost never got inside them. They also started to run together with the obligatory: tall, long-haired, well-muscled... I felt like I was unwrapping Ken dolls.

I again liked the time we spent with Sylian, because it was a page or two. I had no idea if he was going to be a goodie or badie, but he was at least more than just words on the page. So just when I would get fed up with the writing and storytelling there would be this little oasis in the story that kept me going.

When we met Erienne again, I was terribly disappointed. She was well done in the prolog, but had somehow become some victimized romance heroine later in the book. She was weeping and wailing, and becoming, I am sure, fetchingly disheveled. Where was the smart strong woman of the prolog, the one she would have had to be to defy her college and live outside the rules ? She ushered in the period of purple prose that seemed to infect everything for about 150 pages. I felt that the writting style was turgid and overly dramatic. In my mind I saw a room full of William Shatners sitting around a table, reading dialog and stage direction (the story) and chewing on the scenery.

At some point JB killed the Unknown Warrior off, who seemed to be another empty character. Yet with him gone there really was no 'Raven' anymore. He was promptly resurrected and returned to the fold.

The new band was added in to make up for those killed, even though they were mostly empty undeveloped characters (both old and new). For the new crop what had passed for character development was a bit about how they didn't work well together ? So now they are wonderful buddies, take the oath, and everything is just fine ?

And what was the RAGE ? Rescue by soccer hooligans ? Call me foolish but most professional military organizations seem to start with stealth until it is blown, and then they go with fast and deadly. The Raven just seemed bumble around making noise and hoping to scare the defenders to death. Fine for them, but not an option when there are hostages to rescue.

I found Hirad 'the barbarian' to become annoying. I liked him, but he was not in any way a barbarian (not in language, intelligence, or uncontrolled behavior). It seemed to become a plot device to allow Ilkar, usually, to give the reader more information without it seeming like an info dump. But you know, it could have been worked into a normal conversation. We didn't need to 'stop eveything' to explain the obvious to Hirad just about every other page.

I liked that Ilkar, who was a goodie, had an unreasonable prejudice towards Denser. I came to like Denser and his cat, because they were somewhat developed, but I never got what drove him to rise above his college-mates. I liked the shape-shifter, but can't remember his name. Finally I was disappointed that Sylian who had some depth and was possibly interesting, became this terribly cliched baddie.

I liked the idea of the magic system, being a force you have to learn to work. And that not all mages can do all things. I found the evil Wytch Lords and the fighitng barrons and college heads to be predictable and boring. I hated the quest, it was like just get it over with. I am glad it wrapped up quickly at the end instead of being dragged out. I thought the time rips were interesting but under used, as was the dragon.

I hated that there were almost no women in the world in positions of power, or even in everyday positions: farmer, soldier... It felt like a medieval fantasy with a 50's outlook. The women were moslty whores/madonnas/victims. Selyn seemed to have possibility, but she was killed.

I liked the map, but it didn't match up to the story in several places.

So all in all: I thought there were good patches, and I came to care somewhat about some of the characters by the end. But I didn't enjoy the read, can't really recommend the book, nor will I be reading the sequels. If the author writes a different type of story I will be interested enough to check it out. I think he has talent and hopefully experience will strengthen his skills and help him to be less conventional in the story department.

[Erfael]

Thank you, Ficus.

Anyone using the word hooligans in a review gets big points with me.

It's true what you say about Stylian. I thought he was quite interesting until he turned into "mua-ha-ha" man. I hadn't really noticed in the wrap-up that that had happened and he had become so much less interesting, but it did happen.

[fluffy bunny]

I finally found some time to give this book another go (the opening threw me off the first time). With only 100 pages to go, I can say it's better than I expected. I do wonder how much of the story was developed from roleplaying games the author participated in.

There seemed to be a lot of time wasted on physical descriptions, and clothing. I found it wasteful because we didn't get character development, and we almost never got inside them.
I knew there was a good way of saying it - thanks Ficus. Some of the characters were better developed than others. Hirad and Denser's characters were well fleshed out but there were a number of characters that lost out.

Good magic system.

The sense of camaraderie between early members of the Raven is well presented.

Loved the dragon scene. Hopefully the big chap will be back as a foil for the characters.

The bit about the rage wasn't well executed IMHO - after hyping it up for several pages (the raven's 'chaos tactic' etc), at the end of the action, I was befuddled as to what the author was trying to convey.

This stuff about Erienne wanting Denser's seed is a bit random and not elaborated on. For someone overcome by grief over the loss of a child, the way she proceeds doesn't quite ring true. It's a bit of a crap reason for joining the Raven.

What are people's opinions on the Unknown Warrior? His storyline just didn't appeal to me.

[Hobbit]

I do wonder how much of the story was developed from roleplaying games the author participated in. Quite a lot. James has said that he enjoyed the games when he was younger.

Good to see an old thread pop up again.

I can heartily recommend James' latest, btw. Cry of the Newborn is considerably more complex than this. That's not meant to be a criticism; but it does show an author definitely stretching his writing skills.

Hobbit

[NOM]

Thanks for the feedback Fluffy B... and everyone for that matter. Glad you've found it an eqasier read second time around. I can't argue with much of the feedback. It was my first book and I agree it is a little raw. Hopefully, my skills have developed since then... I rather think they have.

What I will say is: 'it was my first book so...' is not an excuse for poor writing. I don't think the writing is poor. Unpolished, perhaps but no one brings their first work to market unable to improve in future works.

Very little is random in the book because everything is returned to in later volumes - what I'm keen to do in all my work is tell the central story within a book that comes to a complete conclusion but to leave some character and story threads open to carry forward. Erienne's reason for joining the Raven isn't crap IMO... read Nightchild to find out why. She is a mage fascinated by the transmission of ability from parent to child. And the 'Big Chap', Sha Kaan, returns many times in future novels - the dragons are a critical factor.

Character development... always a fascinating one. I won't claim I spent the whole process developing characters (I did concentrate on plot, action and pace, it is true). I feel I did develop all the characters as far as they needed to go in that book. The timescale of the novel is just few weeks and no one learns everything about everyone in such a time.

Some loved the way I developed people, some did not. That's fair enough. I think one of the problems with writing a series of books is that the author doesn't want to give everything away early on - trouble is, the reader does not necessarily know that more books are coming and the balance is hard to strike. Clearly for some of you out there, I got it wrong.

A couple of named characters... The Unknown. I'll refer you to the above. His past and the whole Protector issue becomes more and more important as the books go on. There is much mystery about him. And he does have a daft name - but that's nicknames for you. He is terrified about what he might have to become but at the same time knows he must stand up for what he believes. He won't hide. It is a difficult place to be.

Hirad - just one more time because I've been down this path before. 'Barbarian' has nothing necessarily to do with intelligence, uncontrolled behaviour or language. The definition of 'barbarian' is 'uncivilised' more than anything else. And Hirad is blatantly uncivilised. He is coarse, can't read or write, black & white in his views, intolerant and difficult with people he doesn't know. But being a barbarian does not stop him loving his friends, believing in his causes and fighting with skill. I think people confuse 'barbarian' with 'beserker' sometimes, or with a generic fantasy definition. I chose a different path...

There are a couple of things I might do differently if I had the time again. The 'Rage' was fun but could have been executed better. The handling of grief was clumsy, looking back. Any who read on through The Raven will find that changes and the consequences of death of a loved one are far further reaching. I would have spent more time integrating new members with old. It is fair comment that it is a little convenient how well the new bugs slot in. An omission.

So, all in all, fair comment from all with the odd bit I think is misplaced. But useful to me, so thank you all very much.

Please ask other questions or disagree with what I've said... nothing like debate and I promise I won't snivel if you criticise me further.

Sniff.
(Damn)

NOM

[fluffy bunny]

***Spoiler Warning***



The ending to Dawnthief is a strange beast. The Witch Lords are vanquished, Dawnthief is cast eating up the sky and the Raven lose a member. And the book just stops abruptly. Now if that'd been it, I'd have been a bit miffed.

However my copy of Dawnthief has a preview of Noonshade (prologue and chapter 1) at the end of the book which does enhance my reading of the ending. Now the Witch Lords are vanquished, you get a greater sense of the changed balance of power between the warring armies, the rip turns out to be very dangerous and the world James Barclay created is actively evolving. It's a good way to finish.

The author writes very good prologues. Would his work have benefited from an epilogue which acts as a sign of things to come?

[FicusFan]

Hirad - just one more time because I've been down this path before. 'Barbarian' has nothing necessarily to do with intelligence, uncontrolled behaviour or language. The definition of 'barbarian' is 'uncivilised' more than anything else. And Hirad is blatantly uncivilised. He is coarse, can't read or write, black & white in his views, intolerant and difficult with people he doesn't know. But being a barbarian does not stop him loving his friends, believing in his causes and fighting with skill. I think people confuse 'barbarian' with 'beserker' sometimes, or with a generic fantasy definition. I chose a different path...

NOM

I would disagree. 'Barbarian' does not have a universal meaning. It is not like say 'Apple', which is always 'Apple' (or whatever label the language uses). It is more like 'Tall', which depends on what it is being compared to. So a 4 foot person would call a 5 foot 6 inch person 'Tall', but nobody else necessarily would.

The label barbarian is in opposition to something that is called civilized, what exactly makes a civilized person and what makes a barbarian is determined by each culture.

The point you seem to miss about Hirad is that, for some readers, there is no difference between Hirad and the others you have in your story - regardless of what your intentions were. Or the differences that are there are not enough for the reader to say, 'what a barbarian'.

To state that readers are getting it wrong because of an issue of definition ignores that people read and have emotional/intellectual reactions, and don't often consult the dictionary beforehand. They see a character that they recognize from their own lives and while he might be a rude, ignorant, boor, they don't see anything approaching an actual barbarian.

And I am not sure that you can really say that not being able to read or write makes you a barbarian in a quasi-medieval society (or any society at all. Does the failure of an adult to instruct a child make the child automatically a barbarian? There are plenty of modern illiterates, much to our shame). At certain times almost no one was educated or could read or write. Being loud and intolerant and difficult with strangers also has nothing to do with actually being a barbarian, other than in the modern sense where people use the word to mean someone who lacks manners.

Being a barbarian in fact, first and foremost is about being an outsider, looking different, about not speaking the language (Greeks thought others spoke making bar-bar sounds), about not knowing the customs in meals, dress, behavior, social interaction and religious observances. A barbarian is someone who sticks out, who doesn't belong, and may do so loudly and violently or quietly and peacefully (think religious missionaries who moved in with natives and didn't adopt the local culture, to the natives they were barbarians).

[Kazz Wylde]

It sounds like the Raven series is like a fantasy version of special forces/Navy Seals.Cool.