[Erfael]

Ooh, Nimea said, "shit." I'm telling the mods on you. :D

I'll be back with more later. After a long hard day, I just felt like being childish for a moment.

[Gilliam]

Originally posted by Erfael
[[B] From what I've read of GGK, it's not his way to hold the readers hand and walk them through all the implications. I think that's where so much of the depth comes from in this work. The implications of the fall of Al-Rassan are there for the reader to figure out. [B]

This is one of the reasons why I enjoy reading GGK novels. He expects that his readers will think about what he has written.

For me this story followed a similar vein to his other novels in which he is describing "a changing of the guard" or the "end of an era" in which the new era has the impression of being less cultured or receptive than the previous era.

The other aspect that GGK does very well is giving his characters greater depth including contradictions than the one dimensional characters in other novels. One example is Alvar who desired to be a soldier and ended up becoming a doctor and also had a religous conversion in the process.

[Erfael]

Thought I would add this here, too, to keep the discussion of LoAR here, in addition to wherever else it landed:

Originally posted by Mithfanion in another thread:

Just wanted to mention that I've finished Lions of Al-Rassan, which was magnificent. The ending, heavily foreshadowed throughout the tale, was heartbreaking. I don't use that word lightly, because I'm rarely truly moved.

Characterization of the main trio was excellent, but, perhaps somewhat surprisingly, all of the supporting characters were distinctive and well-drawn. The story itself was very interesting, I loved the atmosphere he created, and the story had genuine depth.

Easily the most remarkable book I've read all year. I'm very saddened, but that doesn't eclipse the admiration. There's no Fantasy in this book other than the world itself and yet I rate it 9 out of 10, which is on a par with the best works of Hobb, Martin and Tolkien. Only drawback was that the war which the book had been leading up to which was handled so briefly. The story really needed another 50 pages for that final part to get the treatment it deserved.

[Erfael]

I think another 50 pages detailing the war itself could have only hurt the book. The story is a personal one, really. It is the story of people, specifically the trio you mentioned and how they as a unit carry through the duration of their union. Once Rodrigo falls, there is no more union between those three people, and our journey with them is complete.

One of the major themes of Kay's work is that the story was in progress before we joined it and it continues after we leave it; we merely take a look at what happens for a short time in the characters lives.

Another thing I have found about Kay is that no matter how grand the overall situation is, the story is still about people. The viewpoint never pulls back to show an experience that is larger than that of an individual or very small group. The story may be about how a very large event(or more usually a series of very small ones that all ripple into something major) has impact on these people, but on the same hand not really focus on the effects it has on a large scale.

[Erfael]

3. The joint scenes where the Mujardi leader decides to go to war and the Jaddite leader decides to go to war.

While very transparant in device, I also found this pairing powerful. As an onlooker, one can see that neither of these men is evil. They are driven by their honest beliefs. Kay's setting of these scenes again drives home the fact that these men are the same. Neither is any more or less than the other.


As there is more and more strife between America("Christians") and various Muslim groups in the world, I keep thinking back to these scenes. I think too many people simply label the other side as wrong if they don't share the same views.

One thing that Kay's writing brings to light for me is that there are very few actual "evil" people. I can only think of one or two characters in all of his books that I would label as truly evil. Yet, now we're dealing with an "Axis of Evil," a villification of another viewpoint to acheive personal political ends.

I find that I'm talking to many different people these days who just say that the other side is "wrong" in their beliefs and actions. I find that in light of scenes like the above and the character of Brandin of Ygrath I can't make that same call. I can only label them different in their beliefs.

And the more I think about how people insist on labeling the other side as wrong the same problems we have now will persist into the future. I think the world will continue on the wrong path until some very enlightening world leaders come along on all sides to help everyone step back and realize that new ways need to be found to deal with our neighbors.

Joseph Campbell says that the artists, musicians, and authors of our time need to be the new mythmakers, the leaders who show the rest of the world how to get along in today's society. I think Kay is stepping into that role with many of his books and pointing out things like this, even in the context of Moorish Spain.

With the explosion of travel and communication over the last 100 years, the world has grown far smaller far more quickly than it ever has before, but many of the social constructs in place are the same that have been for many hundreds of years. The us(good) vs. them(evil) mentality of religions that originated at a time when they were necessary for the survival of a society are still in place. As such, we still have friction between these idealogies. I think the next big step for people in our world is to be able to step back and realize that everyone is acting in a way that they think is right and cease the vilification of our neighbors and find new solutions and social innovations to dissipate the friction created by the old ways of looking at the world being forced into a much different world than they originated in.


And that's just some of what Kay has me thinking about months after reading this book....

[Nevyn]

Good call Erfael !!

[Calandra]

I loved this book, and find that it is one of the few fantasy books I have read that have stayed with me more than a few days. I really like the fact that there was a strong central female character, but I suppose that Ammar stole the show for me (never quite got into Rodrigo as a character, but I thought that he worked well in the central triangle).

I have found myself rereading some of the poetry from the book, describing the lost or soon to be lost beauty of the world, and I found that this kind of Tolkein evocation was much more subtly effective than his attempt at something similar in Fionavar.

Anyway, I am interested to note that the world seems the same as in the Sarantine mosaic which I just started. But I assume that Sarantine must be either pre or post Al-Rassan. Anyone know? (or will this be made clear further on in Sarantine?).

[Nevyn]

Anyway, I am interested to note that the world seems the same as in the Sarantine mosaic which I just started. But I assume that Sarantine must be either pre or post Al-Rassan. Anyone know? (or will this be made clear further on in Sarantine?).Without spoiling anything . I wouldn't say it will be made clear , but after you've read The Sarantine Mosaic you'll pretty much know the answer ! *hint* religion

[Calandra]

There was a hint early on - something about how the Kindath worshiped the moon and the Jaddites worship the sun, but no one worshiped the stars - so I presume that somewhere along the way a prophet will appear that worships the stars, thus making Sarantine pre Lions. Which would also fit with the quasi-historical context of Byzantium vs. medieval Spain. But I will wait to find out and look forward to hopefully a good read.

[AuntiePam]

My one little gripe: Kay takes too much liberty sometimes witholding information from the reader for dramatic effect. I think I can forgive it, though, for how well the effects usually work out.


I agree. I think. :)

I just finished the book, and it irked me that Kay would foreshadow something that didn't happen, or that happened differently than expected. The death of Velaz (we were led to think it was Rodrigo), the death of the guy who was protecting Diego (we were led again to think it was Rodrigo), Alvar marrying a doctor (we were led to think it was Jehane).

I felt like I was being teased, and I didn't need teasing to keep reading, or to maintain dramatic tension.

I don't like tricky foreshadowing. For example, when the uprising against the Kindath began, he says that Jehane's parents didn't leave Fezana soon enough.

Well, of course they did! They didn't leave before the riot, but they left alive and were safe. That's "soon enough", in my book.

I loved the aspects of the story that others have described here, especially how the book made me think about religious wars and loyalty.

I loved the characters. Jehane was sometimes a bit coy, but I liked that she was able to enjoy and accept her attraction to Ammar and Rodrigo without stewing unnecessarily about it.

Like others have said, this is one of the most well-structured fantasy books I've ever read. Overall, very enjoyable.