[KatG]

Okay, so now China Mieville is getting nominated for major fantasy awards. I give up -- I'm just going to have to read the stuff so that I can put to rest the conflicting claims, just for myself. (Not that it matters to anyone else.)

Thanks for putting up the info, Homesick.

[Homesick Alien]

Okay, I'm new to this board so I wasn't aware of a debate surrounding the merits of Miéville, and I don't want to start up such a debate on this thread, but -

I loved The Scar, and thought it was fully deserving of its nomination (I also thought Perdido Street Station was brilliant, and it won heaps of awards, inlcuding the British Fantasy Award and the Philip K. Dick award). I unreservedly recommend him to you, KatG.

[Erfael]

Homesick Alien, she's not referring to the merits. She's referring to the controversy regarding:

{conspiratorial whisper}
genre classification
{/conspiratorial whisper}

of said books. Some people seem to think it's important to either have the book solidly in the SF or solidly in the Fantasy camp, and Mieville's work has frustrated their attempts to categorize.


It's not exactly as serious as all that. No one has yet shed blood over the issue, but it has been cause for discussion.

[Homesick Alien]

Aah, I see - some people will only read Miéville if they can fit him neatly into a fantasy classification, and others only if they can fit him neatly into a science fiction classification? Does the criteria that its simply a good book come into it all? ;)

If you want to know what Miéville himself says on this topic, click here (http://www.panmacmillan.com/Features/China/debate.htm).

Anyway, back to to the World Fantasy Awards. What about best novella, which for me seemed to be a hotly contested category this year? Coraline by Neil Gaiman is a wonderful children's book, probably his best work in my opinion. Also, there was Paul Di Fillippo's A Year in a Linear City, which is set in a truly fantastic cityscape, and was the novella that I was barracking for. Anybody read it? Again though, I've only heard good things about the eventual winner, The Library by Zoran Zivkovic, but have yet to read it.

[KatG]

Originally posted by Homesick Alien
Aah, I see - some people will only read Miéville if they can fit him neatly into a fantasy classification, and others only if they can fit him neatly into a science fiction classification? Does the criteria that its simply a good book come into it all? ;)

If you want to know what Miéville himself says on this topic, click here (http://www.panmacmillan.com/Features/China/debate.htm).

Anyway, back to to the World Fantasy Awards. What about best novella, which for me seemed to be a hotly contested category this year? Coraline by Neil Gaiman is a wonderful children's book, probably his best work in my opinion. Also, there was Paul Di Fillippo's A Year in a Linear City, which is set in a truly fantastic cityscape, and was the novella that I was barracking for. Anybody read it? Again though, I've only heard good things about the eventual winner, The Library by Zoran Zivkovic, but have yet to read it.
I seem to have diverted the thread here, sorry.

I looked at Mieville's speech and he seems to regard himself as a fantasy author. He also has very little understanding of the fantasy genre itself. He thinks urban fantasy is a new thing. :) But it doesn't really matter what Mieville calls himself. What matters is what his publisher calls him. I was given to understand that Mieville was marketed by his publisher as science fiction, specifically as steampunk sf, which is a sub-genre of cyberpunk sf. Certainly, given that he's being lauded as a strong storyteller with a literary style who is doing well in sales, sf would love to claim him as they've been overshadowed by fantasy lately. Likewise, fantasy would love to claim him, as his inclusion gives them literary credits, which fantasy is erroneously seldom awarded.

However, his being nominated for the World Fantasy Award seems to clinch it. To get nominated, his publisher has to put him forward and they clearly chose the major fantasy award. Therefore, Mr. Mieville is a fantasy author, for all intents and purposes, whether he enjoys the label or not.

Why does this matter? Well, to me personally it does, because I've been going around saying, I haven't read Mieville but I understand he's a sf author. Which is apparently wrong. :)

It also matters a bit in the market. In some bookstores, sf and fantasy are separated, something that Michael Swanwick predicted would occur. (Swanwick considers himself and his publisher considers him to be a sf author, though he acknowledges his debt to fantasy fiction.) SF and fantasy are joined at the hip because the sf publishers started the fantasy genre, but it's an uneasy joining. While many fans love both sf and fantasy, myself included, many also prefer one or the other and don't want to mix their chocolate and their peanut butter. So how Mieville is marketed to the general public does matter and does effect who his audience is and what he gets in sales. Not that he can't write both sf and fantasy -- a number of authors do -- but there is a dividing line between the two of intent, specifically scientific intent. It does not appear that Mr. Mieville actually has any scientific intent. So he's all yours, fantasy fans! At least, I think he is. One day soon, I hope to read "Perdido Street Station" and see for myself.

[Homesick Alien]

KatG, is there another thread we can move this discussion too? I'd like to reply, but not here...

[KatG]

There, let's see if that works. Sorry if I hijacked anyone unnecessarily.

[Homesick Alien]

Originally posted by KatG

I seem to have diverted the thread here, sorry.

It's okay, it's an interesting topic, one that has popped up on various other message boards.

Originally posted by KatG
I looked at Mieville's speech and he seems to regard himself as a fantasy author.

What made you think that? He actually consideres himself a New Weird ('oh boy', I hear people saying, 'let's not go there') writer. New from New Wave and Weird from Weird Tales. He sees himself working in a tradition that blends fantasy, science fiction and horror. See his Guardian top 10 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/top10s/top10/0,6109,716474,00.html) for more on this.

Originally posted by KatG
He also has very little understanding of the fantasy genre itself. He thinks urban fantasy is a new thing. :)

Um, where did he say that? The very fact that he states Leiber and Harrison's Viriconium as influences shows that he knows that urban fantasy isn't a new thing.

Originally posted by KatG
But it doesn't really matter what Mieville calls himself. What matters is what his publisher calls him. I was given to understand that Mieville was marketed by his publisher as science fiction, specifically as steampunk sf, which is a sub-genre of cyberpunk sf. Certainly, given that he's being lauded as a strong storyteller with a literary style who is doing well in sales, sf would love to claim him as they've been overshadowed by fantasy lately. Likewise, fantasy would love to claim him, as his inclusion gives them literary credits, which fantasy is erroneously seldom awarded.

I would say he's marketed as fantasy. But I'm not sure I understand why it matters what publishers call him? The point of his essay was to show that you don't have to fit in with the Weberian ideal types of fantasy and science fiction. I think what matters is that he's writing interesting work that can't be easily classified. If that makes some fantasy or science fiction only readers uncomfortable reading him, that's their loss.

Originally posted by KatG
However, his being nominated for the World Fantasy Award seems to clinch it. To get nominated, his publisher has to put him forward and they clearly chose the major fantasy award. Therefore, Mr. Mieville is a fantasy author, for all intents and purposes, whether he enjoys the label or not.

There's some tautological logic going on there. So if Arthur C. Clarke's Rendevous with Rama was nominated for a World Fantasy Award, and marketed by his publishers as fantasy, it would become fantasy by default, even though it's clearly not?

Originally posted by KatG
Why does this matter? Well, to me personally it does, because I've been going around saying, I haven't read Mieville but I understand he's a sf author. Which is apparently wrong. :)

Well, KatG, I would recommend you stay well clear of Mieville if you hope he's going to fit nicely into a traditional fantasy classification. There is fantasy in his books, but there is also steampunk, and there is also horror. That's why they're so damn cool. :)

Originally posted by KatG
It also matters a bit in the market. In some bookstores, sf and fantasy are separated, something that Michael Swanwick predicted would occur. (Swanwick considers himself and his publisher considers him to be a sf author, though he acknowledges his debt to fantasy fiction.) SF and fantasy are joined at the hip because the sf publishers started the fantasy genre, but it's an uneasy joining. While many fans love both sf and fantasy, myself included, many also prefer one or the other and don't want to mix their chocolate and their peanut butter. So how Mieville is marketed to the general public does matter and does effect who his audience is and what he gets in sales. Not that he can't write both sf and fantasy -- a number of authors do -- but there is a dividing line between the two of intent, specifically scientific intent. It does not appear that Mr. Mieville actually has any scientific intent. So he's all yours, fantasy fans! At least, I think he is. One day soon, I hope to read "Perdido Street Station" and see for myself.

I can't disagree with the fact that how Mieville's marketed affects who is audience will be. But that's a problem with marketing and readers caring about marketing. IMHO, it's a shame people care so much for how books are marketed...

[DrBloodmoney1]

All I have to add to this discussion are a few opinions:
1. China Mieville does not write urban fantasy. His novels thus far have all been set in urban settings in different time/space. Certainly not any city any reader of this board would recognize. The Tain, however, was set in a near future London. Urban fantasy, to me, speaks more to Charles de Lint and Emma Bull. Fantastic things occuring in modern day (if in de Lint's case, fictional) cities.

2. China is a genre bender. He appeals to many different types of readers for reasons already mentioned: he combines elements of sci-fi, fantasy, and horror in one package. (For me, someone who reads all three genres voraciously, his books were just what I was looking for).

3. I like to think of his new genre (for it is a new genre, or at least will be after publishers jump on the 'China' bandwagon with new authors) as science fantasy. Steampunk doesn't set well with me. It implies 'Gibson' attitude with 19th century technology. 'New Weird' just sounds stupid. Plus, I have become jaded due to the discussions over at TTA Press (www.ttapress.com).

4. So the guy is a Socialist. So what? His books are not dialectic Communist propaganda. They are engaging, well-written, genre fiction that you would probably enjoy if you are a member of this board.
That is all.

DrB

[DarthV]

I don't think it matters what you classify CM's stuff as, it's DAMN good!