[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Before the realizng of GRRM everybody was telling me: "He's great! One of the best!"
Yes, he's definetely one of the best: Feist, Jordan, Eddings and Brooks, but why is there so much blood and sex in this book?
Is it obligatory?
I read "GoT" - and I said to myself: "Excellent!" But after I read "CoK" and "SoS" I was very confused.
I still like the series, but why so much sex and the books are kinda bloodbath? I mean when I remind myslef of aSoIaF I remind of the sex scene between Tyrion and Sae. No, I am not a voyeur and I have no problems, but are these elements obligatory?
My opinion is negative! Because, person could like the series without this elements. They doesn't make the book good, even on the contrary - it's a minus of the books.

[This message has been edited by Elan Morin Tedronai (edited March 11, 2002).]

[Mithfânion]

Yes, I guess it can be too much for some people. Personally I feel there's too much attention for sexuality and especially sexual description ( of a character's body parts for instance) but I don't think it detracts from the book in a major way. I think the sexual descriptions are fun most of the time, and really add to the story, but when they don't, it blows. I could do with less sex stuff ( or talk of Tyrion's masterbation)

Obviously the other books you metnioned are not just a little bit, but a lot lighter when it comes to sexuality and bloodbath.

The bloodbath part in my opinion is a bit exagarrated. It's not as bad as its made out to be. I would say that he is realistic rather than extremely bloody, I've seen worse.

In the end, everyone's mileage for sex and battles varys ( http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/wink.gif). I think most people like his rather refreshing style.

Is it obligatory? Absolutely not. It's just part of his style. It's certainly not as disturbing as the endless Tolkien rehash in other books of lesser quality.

[This message has been edited by Mithfânion (edited March 09, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Mithfânion (edited March 10, 2002).]

[Zsinj16]

Well, Elan, I myself have not read the ASOIAF Series by GRR Martin, but I certainly intend to. And about the blood and sex thing in his novels, well, personally, I enjoy blood and gory gritty battles in fantasy books. It doesn't bother me any. However, the explicit sex...well that depends, from what I've heard, George R.R. Martin puts sex in his novels where it fits in the storyline. Now with that being said, I don't think I would have any problems reading his novels, if I didn't like a particular sexual scene or scenes, I'd skip past it/them and continue reading. But, if (and I doubt that this is true) George R.R. Martin is just meaning to be a pervert and just fills his books up with needless, endless pages and chapters of sexual scenes, as I've heard the infamous John Norman does, then no I probably wouldn't be to happy to read his novels. But as I said, I don't think he does this because if he did, everyone wouldn't have such a high opinion of his novels like they do.
So to answer your question, no I don't think that sex is obligatory to a fantasy novel, in fact I think most fantasy novels could still do very well without explicit sex in them.
However, I do think blood and gore are sometimes obligatory to fantasy novels, cause usually when a guy is killed with a sword, axe, mace. etc., he doesn't just say "Ouch, that hurt!" and fall dead on the ground! http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Bardos]

Blood and sex for my Lord Arioch!

http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Zsinj16]

You can always count on Bardos to lighten up a subject with a bit of comic relief! http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

[saintjon]

How can blood and sex be any more or less obligatory than any other story element? It's Martin's story, let him tell it.

[This message has been edited by saintjon (edited March 09, 2002).]

[Matrim]

I don't have any problem with the violence in fantasy unless it has not any connection to the plot.
But the sex in Martin bothers me a little.I got the idea that GRRM seems to have spent quite a lot of time with prostitutes -he is writing so much for them.Is this really that important to know all the sexual adventures of Tyrion?I like Tyrion and I could easily live without reading for his sexual desire every page in his chapters.
But nevertheless Martin is a great author.

[Alucard]

Sex and violence. Is it necessary? No, in the end, it's not. Many great stories have been done without it. But should it be cut from certain stories because some are offended by it? In my opinion, hell no.

Some people are turned off by book's with explicit description. If this is the case with you, then do a little research before you pick up a novel. If the book is too "gritty" for your tastes, then don't read it. Or, if you still want to read the story, but don't enjoy the sex scenes, then skip over them. It's not that hard to do.

I have yet to be offended by the content of a book. Sex scenes have never bothered me. Sex is one of my favorite activities. It's a lot of fun. So if I see it in a book, it doesn't shock me. It's a part of life, so I don't see the problem if it's part of a story. I think it must be appropriate for the tale being told, but as long as it is, I won't complain.

As for violence, can't say that bothers me either. The thing about violence, is that in real life, it's not funny. Ever. It's really messed up, and reading about it in the news is depressing. But in a book, I know that it's just a story, that the characters are fictional, that this isn't really happening -- which is why I can enjoy it. In make-believe, it can actually be an interesting subject. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, as long as it isn't real, violence is a very interesting topic.

With martin, the topic that will ever go away (that was for you, Qin), I don't think the sex and violence at all detracts from the story. I think it helps it quite a bit. It makes it all seem that much more "real". Martin is obviously trying to write a dark, realistic story about men and women driven by greed for power (generalization). If he candy-coated his descriptions, the story would lose some of the foreboding and serious feel that he seems so famous for.

But if you don't like sex and violence, there are plenty of authors out there that write great stories without it. I see no need to complain. Just read something else.

As for myself, I don't like to always read about sex and violence. In fact, many of my favorite books have very little of it. A lot of my top authors write young adult stories, which have very little of these elements(harry potter, his dark materials, and the neverending story, to name a few). But I also like authors who incorporate more "Adult" elements in their story. And I would never want to see their work cut up because it offended some. I'd much rather have variety than cencorship.

And by the way, loved the subtitle "CoK".

[This message has been edited by Alucard (edited March 09, 2002).]

[allanon]

Well, IMO, there is no need, but it helps the book in the competition of bestselling lists. http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Blizzaurel]

I agree with Alucard. Sex and violence- well they're sort of necessary. Although, I could go without some of the Tyrion sex scenes... but I'd rather read them than have GRRM change his story.