[fluffy bunny]

Am bored- hence the topic
(Am writing whatever comes into my head so apologies for crap structure in advance)

It has surprised me on many occasions to see people arguing one thing religiously whilst failing to even consider the other side of the argument.


Case in point- just about everyone says we should not chop down the Brazillian rainforests and the Brazillian government is just plain wrong in allowing it to happen. (I'm sure u all know the reasons with global warming and such- if not u've been living a fairly sheltered life). I disagree with this statement completely and entirely and get very annoyed when people ask me to sign petitions and the such against chopping down the rainforests.
Look at it from the point of view of the Brazillian government and the Brazillian people. They need the land for houses and industry in order develop their economy, improve their world status, to bring in wealth to the people and to provide what many of us in the Western world take for granted: steady source of food, sanitation and hygiene, medical facilities, water supplies and the like.
It's all very well and good for those of us who live thousands of miles away to say no u can't do that- u'll screw up the planet. But we are even worse culprits than the Brazillians- the majority of fossil fuel burning (creating a lot of the problem in the 1st place) {actually was cfcs a few decades ago but u can't change that now} takes place in the Western world, and are not even willing to reduce the burning because it will harm our economies- how hypocritical is that?.
It's not as if the people of Brazil wanted to cut down the rainforests- with all this bad press they've been getting, they wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think there was any other way.


Another thing that rankles me is this generation of hate v asylum seekers over here in the UK and in europe general. Yes they are poor and thus more likely to commit crimes and such, and a lot of them aren't genuine.
But consider this: what was the initial purpose of granting asylum and refugee status? It was a humanitarian reason, (another word banded about quite randomly by a number of politians): if asylum or refugee status wasn't granted, these people probably would not be alive in a few days/week/months time. Freedom from torture unacceptable to many in the western world. I would ask - is it not worth it that 99 fakes get through as long as the 1 person that this was intended for gets through as well?
So why the incitement of hatred by politicans? Why the resentment by the people - it's not entirely the refugees' fault. Dividing people just to get votes makes me sick.

Look at the issue from both points of view before making a decision- if there isn't an opinion expressed about the other point of view, demand it - u can't make a decision without all of the facts!

[This message has been edited by fluffy bunny (edited May 29, 2002).]

[Ogg]

I just don't get the point you are trying to make??? http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Ladijen]

Fluffy Bunny--I have to say something, because I am one of those irritating tree-huggers. I don't think the rain forests should be cut down because the entire ecosystem is virtually irreplacable. Yes, the people of Brazil, the economy, etc., would benefit in the short term, but once people competely destroy their environment, what happens later? Yes, it is easy for me to say from safe in So. California, but I don't just single out Brazil or the rainforests--the US is just as bad, and I also sign petitions and vote in favor of, for instance, saving local wetlands and national parks, and reducing dependence on fossil fuels. (And I don't own an SUV http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif )

The one thing I do admit is that, while I think the natural environment should be saved, I do not have the answers to how this should be done without causing many people hardships. I think a way could be found, but it would most likely not be immediately profitable--which I think can be applied to this statement: "It's not as if the people of Brazil wanted to cut down the rainforests- with all this bad press they've been getting, they wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think there was any other way." You should better say "they wouldn't be doing it if there was another way that would still make money." I do consider both sides of the question, but I think that humanity will benefit more in the long run if we take better care of the earth now.

[Penumbra]

Both of the problem you discussed are caused by overpopulation, the POV you seem to have missed.

[fortytwo]

Without going into any of the specific points about rain forests/asylum seekers how many people do you know that are prepared to see both sides of an argument? How often have you heard anyone say "actually I think you're right".Most people have their entrenched views and nothing will change them.

[fluffy bunny]

Ah some good responses- better try to reply with some thought put into it.

Ogg- i refuse to let u drive me round the bend (though it may be too late)

Ladijen-

agreed the current ecosystem is irreplaceable and the alternative one isn't too appealing to me personally.

'once people competely destroy their environment, what happens later?' - noone actually knows- its all just theory at this stage- we're going to find out though (call me a pessimist if u wish- i won't deny it).

The Earth has survived heatwaves and ice ages in the past before, and I can safely say it will survive climate change produced by us in the future. The stuff living on the earth however will need to adapt or die- and that includes us. Humankind may not like the changes, but other species will do. Nature always finds a way. In the end we either we look after our surroundings or simply put our surroundings will not look after us in the future.

However even if we save the rainforests, everything else going on around the world (mainly 1st world countries) will tip us into global warming and climate change anyway. So why not let the Brazillian government look after its people? Why not give them a chance to prosper in a world that's going down the tubes with us in charge anyway? For you it may be theoretically desirable to keep the forests, but the people over there live in the here and now- there are people over there who would be needlessly dying to help a world that conveniently forgets about the environment when it's not in a country's 'best interests'. The easiest way I reckon to save those forests is this: all the people around the world who want them saved pay a little money to the Brazillian government- if they get more cash that way than chopping the trees down, the trees will stay(that way it's win-win for both sides).

I think it's commendable ur doing ur part for the environment as all people should do. However you are competing against major industry which has much to lose if things were done in the ideal way to conserve the planet we know now. And call me fatalistic, but i don't think u can win that one.

__
Penumbra- overpopulation- could u elaborate on this- I don't know what angle ur coming from?
___
fortytwo- that's one of the best responses I've heard to the topic and I'm still thinking of a reply to counter that (I'm feeling argumentative at the mo). Will get back to u.


[This message has been edited by fluffy bunny (edited May 29, 2002).]

[Ladijen]

Fluffy Bunny--to prove Fortytwo wrong, "Actually, I think you are right!" :) Overall, I do think it is a losing battle, but I try to do the little that I can, if that makes sense. The entire problem IS overpopulation...and my sympathies are with the creatures and life that are being pushed out rather than with the humans. (I have been called some nasty names for this viewpoint...) I know, I know--no, I'm not volunteering to help solve the overpopulation problem by getting rid of myself! :)

I also agree with this statement, which made me laugh because it is straight out of Jurassic Park: "Nature always finds a way." It just sometimes seems like the only part of nature that will find a way will be cockroaches and ants!

[fluffy bunny]

Originally posted by Ladijen
It just sometimes seems like the only part of nature that will find a way will be cockroaches and ants!

And who knows what they'll evolve to.

[asimovian]

fluffy bunny,

quote
And who knows what they'll evelove to
unquote

Humans of course.

[enazwo]

The woes of man's raping of nature in order to perpetuate our specie's needs and appetites may require more then two viewpoints. Will we solve overpopulation on our own, or will "nature find a way"?

I think we should concentrate our efforts on a global effort involving all nations and all creeds and religions. There is something we can do as world community that can help alleviate some of the overcrowding and most countrys would benefit.

What am I talking about? Lets blow up the Moon. We wouldn't have to worry about those pesky high and low tides. The earths water level would settle down some where between the a high and low tide. There would be extra land for every country that borders the sea. With that land we could convert into Beer Gardens and other useful things.

The other good thing about blowing up the Moon is all the problems with full moons making people act wacky. It is well known that all law enforcement agencies have extra officers on duty for full moons. So blowing up the moon would have a calming effect.

Another good thing about blowing up the moon is we could see more stars with it gone and it would add to the romantic mood at all the beer gardens. So it would increase love in the world and in a world crowded with anger we could use a little more love.

And with the whole world working together to blow up the Moon would help us bond as world community. Imagine the collective pride, this noble cause of blowing up the moon, will rasie in the hearts on that glorious day when we all sit out on clear night to watch the Moon getting blowed up real good. I have tears in my eyes right now thinking about.

So are you with me? We can do this. Here's a chance to unite our planet in a grand noble effort. Think about it, we have the power to change the shape of the universe. Let me know. This is an idea so great that nothing can stop it from happening. It will start out as internet grass roots movement. I sense we are bound for glory people. Join the world as we blow up the Moon.

So send me your donations care of enazwo.
I'll be in my beer garden.