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Zsinj
May 25th, 2004, 10:15 PM
Well, I just recently saw Return of the King and I must say that it is the best flick I have seen so far! I meant to go to it while it was playing at the theatre, but unfortunately, I was very ill at that time.
I have some questions about the ROTK movie, if any of you would be so kind as to explain/answer them.

-Why did a giant green energy blast shoot up from the fortress of Minas Morgul when Frodo approached it? What was the significance of that?

- In the ROTK book, I seem to remember Samwise killing Shelob by thrusting Sting through her brain. In the movie he just stabs her in the gut and forces her to retreat.

-In the ROTK book, Sam has to go through with two stone demons at either side which are called the "Watchers" or something like that, to enter the fortress of Ciruth Ungol. This did not happen in the movie.

-Why did they make the inside of the fortress of Ciruth Ungol to look simply like a crude barracks? I always imagined the inside of Ciruth Ungol to be darkly, ominously, and demonically grand and magnificent.

-I heard someone say that the Mouth of Sauron would appear in the DVD version of ROTK, is this true?

-Was the dude who did the voice of the Witch King in FOTR replaced with another dude in ROTK, because the two voices sound completely different to me. The voice of the Witch King in FOTR sounded far more raspy and demonic, while the voice in ROTK sounded like a deep semi-growly Darth Vader-like voice.

-Was the dude who did the voice of the ugly, annoying orc general in ROTK
the same dude who did the voices of all those Saturday morning cartoon villains, such as Darkseid from Super Powers, the main villain from Transformers (forget his name), and Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget? Because it certainly sounded like him.

-Where the heck were the barbaric Pukel Men in all this? Did Jackson decide to leave them out just like he did the Mouth of Sauron?

-

Curver
May 26th, 2004, 06:43 AM
Much of what you miss, Zsinj, is down to artistic licence/money/time/length of movie. Like the cinema ommision of Saruman's end, and the resulting scouring of the Shire, a lot of time would have been used to play uot the scenes you mention. Some, like the wounding, rather than killing of Shelob, is probably for effect - will she come back at a later point?
As to Ciroth Ungol, I think a place inhabited by orcs would be less than grand quite quickly. Jackson gave us a believable backdrop to the scene :cool:
As to the rest, who knows. I guess we have to wait for the extended version, and hope this answers our questions. :confused:

Archren
May 26th, 2004, 02:54 PM
I agree that artistic liscence has a lot to do with things, especially big bolts of green energy.

However, even in the book, Shelob is not killed. She retreats to her lair, nursing a wounded eye and a stab wound to the stomach, to await some easier meals. :D

Mithfânion
May 27th, 2004, 03:14 PM
Ok, trying to explain this from a movie POV, not necessarily realted to Tolkien's masterpiece:

Why did a giant green energy blast shoot up from the fortress of Minas Morgul when Frodo approached it? What was the significance of that?

It heralds the arrival of the Morgul Lord, The Witch King. The blast is probably supposed to represent a bundling of (his) sorcerous power, after which his soldiers issue from the gates.


I heard someone say that the Mouth of Sauron would appear in the DVD version of ROTK, is this true?

Yes, he will supposedly speak with Aragorn. However the scenario will be different from the book. I'll say no more on that, though I know how it will end in the film.

Evil Agent
May 29th, 2004, 02:22 PM
Okay, Zinsj, I'll try to answer every question.

1. As has been said, the green blast of energy signaled the Witch King and the launch of the troops... basically the start of the war. I think it's similarly described in the book.

2. In the book, Sam does the exact same thing to Shelob. Stabs her once in the cluster of eyes, and stabs her really good in the gut. He does not get her in the brain. And she does not die. In fact, Tolkien really creepily implies that Shelob went and healed and regenrated over long long years. So this scene was pretty much exactly like the book, except it went on a bit too long in the film.

3. Yes they cut out the scene with the "watchers" outside Cirith Ungol, but it looks like they're still there... look for them, you'll see two cool statues at the gate... maybe it will be in the extended edition?

4. Why did they make the inside of Cirith Ungol look crude? I don't know. To tell you the truth, I never pictured it all grand and demonic like you said... I think it was supposed to be more of an army barracks type watchtower... but that's all just a matter of design and opinion I guess.

5. Yes, the Mouth of Sauron will appear in the extended edition, and he's played by the guy who played the Train Man in the Matrix 3.

6. Yes, I think the Witch King is a different voice now. The Witch King in film three is played by Lawrence Makaore, the same guy who plays the ugly orc who leads the assault on Minas Tirith (named Gothmog), and also plays Lurtz in film 1 (the Uruk who kills Boromir).

7. In direct correlation with the last question, no the ugly orc is not the guy from saturday morning cartoons. It's the Maori actor who plays Lurtz and the Witch King as well.

8. As far as I remember, Pukel Men aren't the Wild Men you speak of, but the STONE STATUES they made or worshipped... a very minor side thread of story in the book... and while Ghan-Buri-Ghan and his fellows are not in the film, THE PUKEL MEN ARE! There are several shots of a stone pukel-man carving, when Elrond arrives with the reforged sword...in Dunnharrow. This small piece of detail made the movie seem like the real middle earth for me.

Hope that takes care of most of your questions! :p

Zsinj
May 29th, 2004, 07:26 PM
the same guy who plays the ugly orc who leads the assault on Minas Tirith (named Gothmog),

Hey! Gothmog is the name of the Balrog Lord in the Silmarillion! (which I haven't read as of yet, but I know at least that) Did Jackson blatantly rip that name out of the Silmarillion and use it for ROTK or is it more of an homage to the Silmarillion?
Also I was wondering why they didnt at least mention one thing about Morgoth, the first Dark Lord? Because I remember them mentioning him somewhere in the LOTR Trilogy of novels. I don't think they out and out said his name, but I think I remember Gandalf saying something like "Sauron is a servant to a force even more darker and powerful than himself" or something along those lines, which of course, hints at Morgoth. I was really hoping that Jackson might put a reference about the Dark God in the movie, you know, to kind of educate the people who were watching the movies and haven't read the books, and to use it as a pleasing easter egg for us LOTR fans. But sadly, it looks like I was wrong. :(

Mithfânion
May 30th, 2004, 05:29 AM
Hey! Gothmog is the name of the Balrog Lord in the Silmarillion! (which I haven't read as of yet, but I know at least that) Did Jackson blatantly rip that name out of the Silmarillion and use it for ROTK or is it more of an homage to the Silmarillion?

There is a " Gothmog" in the LOTR as well. No rip-offs.

I was really hoping that Jackson might put a reference about the Dark God in the movie, you know, to kind of educate the people who were watching the movies and haven't read the books, and to use it as a pleasing easter egg for us LOTR fan

They must have felt that that would have been too confusing. I think they were right here btw, much of the movie audience is confused as it is with such a large cast of characters, movie audiences in particular aren't used to that. When you build Sauron up to be the main body of danger and power, it's going to be confusing to then reference to yet another, even greater Dark Lord. Because if you mention Morgoth, you're also going to have to explain why he isn't showing up. Which is more screen time, which they're already in short supply of.

Miriamele
May 30th, 2004, 12:04 PM
Also I was wondering why they didnt at least mention one thing about Morgoth, the first Dark Lord? Because I remember them mentioning him somewhere in the LOTR Trilogy of novels. I don't think they out and out said his name, but I think I remember Gandalf saying something like "Sauron is a servant to a force even more darker and powerful than himself" or something along those lines, which of course, hints at Morgoth.

Zsinj, I'm pretty sure that Morgoth was mentioned in FOTR during the Balrog scene. Doesn't Gandalf tell the fellowship "That creature is a Balrog of Morgoth" or something to that effect? Or maybe Sauruman mentions him when he's looking at the picture of the balrog before the fellowship enters Moria? It's in there somewhere.

Evil Agent
June 2nd, 2004, 11:10 PM
I wish I saw this question earlier! :p

Yes, the movies DO mention Morgoth. In fact he is mentioned TWICE! It's exactly those little details (along with things like mentioning Numenor, and the White Tree, and the Valar), that make the movies feel like authentic Tolkien fare to me! I LOVE IT!

First mention - Extended Edition of FOTR, in Lorien, when Galadriel says that Gandalf has fallen into shadow. Legolas then says "He was taken by both shadow and flame. A Balrog of Morgoth. For we went needlessly into the net of Moria". Note, this is only in the extended edition.

Second mention - Both versions of The Two Towers. When Gandalf comes back as the White, and tells them of his battle with the Balrog. It shows them battling on the top of the mountain, and Gandalf's voiceover says "From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak, I fought him. The Balrog of Morgoth."

As far as I can tell, those are the only two mentions of Morgoth's name, but it's still something!