[KatG]

I think I almost got it. Not having a Sherlock Holmes moment yet. - So if I ever wrote enough to be novel length I could use this to produce something that looked like a book?

Yes, but the idea of POD is that the book isn't printed until someone wants to buy it (demand.) Then it is printed and given to them (at the moment, mostly shipped to them.) And POD is sometimes also referring to electronic downloads on demand as well as actual print.

Larger presses may eventually start using POD, and have toyed with it, because it's a neat solution to the returns system, where booksellers order up lots of printed books and then return what they don't want or can't sell for a full refund from the publisher, and because it could be useful for backlist titles that only sell a few copies a year, and so on. There are companies looking to set up machines in bookstores, etc. But there are hacker/copyright/logistics/expenses, etc. concerns with POD, and there is more interest in developing the electronic download side with e-readers or multi-purpose devices that can function as e-readers, which currently makes up, with online stuff, about 3% of the overall market and much of the self-publishing market.

It's all very complicated and shifting with technology, but if you decide at some point that you want to self-publish something, you can check out the established and reputable POD businesses and see if that's the way you want to go.

[Daddy Darth]

Thanks Kat - it is very complicated sounding. I dont think I will worry too much about it for now. Who knows if I actually complete something my interest may be peaked.

[Desert Coyote]

Response deleted

[KatG]

Anything under 80,000 will get lumped into Juvenille Fantasy (unless it's damn good) and anything over will very likely get rejected outright.

And this is a standard which I have taken very loud and public umbrage with, mainly because you can't win at this range. (at least I can't)

The requirements for the YA market are not about length. If you have a very adult story that is 42,000 words, with no juvenile or young main characters, then it is unlikely that you're going to get much interest from YA. As for shorter works in SFFH, chap book publishing is up and novella publishing is up. Even short story collection publishing is up. Most of it (though not all,) is in the small press market. Additionally, while a 42,000 word story may be somewhat difficult as a novel length for a larger house, a 55,000-75,000 word novel in SF wouldn't be off the wall at all, nor would it be totally ignored in horror. And in contemporary fantasy, shorter lengths are not necessarily unwelcome. It is also likely to become more common in alternate world fantasy.

I've been on a writer's site for approximately a year, with other fantasy writers. Just about all of us have taken offense at the success that Stephenie Meyer has garnered with her vampire books,

That's because you don't understand how the written fiction market works. Fiction is symbiotic. The success of Meyer's work pays for many other authors who are writing very different books from hers, it helps the fantasy market grow and have the support of the booksellers and provides greater opportunities for all sorts of fantasy writers.

1) Her vampire stories have buggered the fantasy market: nobody will consider your work unless you have a vampire in it somewhere.

I know you're just venting, but this is an unnecessary and silly assertion. Do you have any idea how many vampire stories they turn down every month, and did so long before Stephanie Meyer was on the scene? Do you have any idea what else is out there, in the adult market if that's what you are aiming for, or the YA market, if that is your interest? (If it is, and you've got a 42,000 word YA novel, why is novel length the main obstacle?) Anything that you see on shelves was bought a couple of years ago, and if you're only looking for vampire books, then you're not studying the market properly, in my opinion. More to the point, most stories with vampires in them are contemporary fantasy or paranormal romance or horror or YA, all of which runs much shorter than your average alternate world fantasy.

Gripe about bloat in other people's novels all you like. But don't try to run around screeching that giant vampire books are all that is out there and claim that Stephenie Meyers is the evidence of it. That's bright shiny object thinking.

If you want, we can set up a new thread where we can go over various sectors of the market and what publishers are actually doing. But the publishers and agents are stupid hacks and this bestselling author I don't like is ruining everything thinking is counterproductive. Not to mention stressful. :)

[Desert Coyote]

Response deleted

[KatG]

I'm well aware of that opinion. I've been hearing it for twenty years working in book publishing. It's not exactly new. :)

I'm trying to help here. By looking at the whole market, you aren't chasing trends -- which is fairly useless -- but instead can identify publishing opportunities and understand how to describe your work in the context of the market so that you can have a better shot at taking advantage of those opportunities.

It's my opinion that's not the popular one with new writers, I'm afraid. The reality of a fiction and category market that works through symbiosis and variety is counter-intuitive to many people, so they reject it. So I'll let it drop. But really, there are opportunities for novels of different lengths.

[Holbrook]

1) Her vampire stories have buggered the fantasy market: nobody will consider your work unless you have a vampire in it somewhere.


Sorry, but this is not true at all. I would suggest you research what is currently being bought by publishers. Vampire fiction is a small part/sub genre of the main fantasy genre.

A subscription to the Locus Magazine is a good start. Subscribing to the feeds from publishers such as Orbit, Tor etc and especially Angry Robot. They most certainly are not looking for Stephenie Meyers "Vampire" books.

Attend Cons, talk to agents and publishers in person. Listen to what professionals say on panels about the business. Find out what they are looking for. To be honest there is a lot of nonsense talked online about publishers/agents and what they want.

And on a personal note; the novel that helped me catch an agent wasn't "Vampire" nor where any of the outlines I discussed with my agent and with some publishers over the last couple of days. In fact I have come home with my head spinning with ideas and my knowledge of the industry has increased tenfold. I am going to need quite a few days to sort it all out into any logical thought :eek:

[shevdon]

Just because an opinion is held, even if it is held by a substantial group, does not make it true. I also think that anything identified by the author as a rant has to be taken in the spirit it is offered.

DC - that you and your fellows feel that Stephanie Meyer has done you a disservice is a shame and a basic misunderstanding of how markets work. It implies that the fantasy market is of a fixed size and that the more vampire books there are, the fewer there are of anything else. This is not true.

The implication of your post is that Meyer is somehow preventing you and your fellows from being successful. This is even further from the truth. Without the best-selling Fantasy authors, the genre would become irrelevant and die. Meyer's success has brought people to fantasy that would not otherwise have read books in that genre. The same is true of J K Rowling. True, not all of those people will continue to read Fantasy, but some will.

The truth is that Meyer, Rowling and others have opened the door to a whole new audience of readers who will look for other things to read. It is down to us as writers to provide those new readers with interesting and compelling stories so that they stay with the genre. If we can't tempt them to stay and broaden their horizons then that is our fault, not Meyer's. So, instead of ranting at the authors who make it into the best-seller lists for spoiling it for everyone else, we should be celebrating their success and finding ways to build on it.

Going back to the subject of book length, I submitted a first novel of 150K words to a very respected agent and am now represented by that agent. We sold that book and a sequel to an imprint of HarperCollins and the first book will be published in about five weeks time. It does not contain vampires, though it could be described as Urban Fantasy.

Yes, you are more likely to be able to get a book in the 80K-120K words published as a first-time author, but that's a guideline, not a rule. If your story is strong enough and your writing good enough, those guidelines can flex.

Ultimately, if you are concentrating on word-count then you may be focusing on the wrong thing. What matters are plot, characters, setting and the quality of your writing. Get those right and the word-count is very much a secondary issue.

Most of all, have fun with your writing. To reiterate what was said earlier, if you're having fun then your readers will too.

[Daddy Darth]

Going back to the subject of book length, I submitted a first novel of 150K words to a very respected agent and am now represented by that agent. We sold that book and a sequel to an imprint of HarperCollins and the first book will be published in about five weeks time. It does not contain vampires, though it could be described as Urban Fantasy.

Yes, you are more likely to be able to get a book in the 80K-120K words published as a first-time author, but that's a guideline, not a rule. If your story is strong enough and your writing good enough, those guidelines can flex.

Thats fantastic man. Interested if you submitted out of the blue to the agent or how you went about that. This part about how a book gets published is very interesting. Again congrats - enjoy your success.

[shevdon]

Thats fantastic man. Interested if you submitted out of the blue to the agent or how you went about that. This part about how a book gets published is very interesting. Again congrats - enjoy your success.

Thank you for your good wishes. As many on sffworld will appreciate, I am tremendously excited to be having my first novel published in just over a month's time. I am discovering, though, as I am sure people have before me, that the hard work is only just beginning. Still, it's great fun and I wouldn't miss it for worlds.

I am reliably informed that there will be a review of the book, SIXTY-ONE NAILS, near the launch date on Fantasy Book Critic, so watch out for that in mid to late October.

The publishing process is widely discussed in threads like Getting Published (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22872) and Short Stories before novel? (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22475&highlight=short) so I won't repeat what's there, except to say that yes, after a lot of work and preparation, I queried an agent, was asked for a partial and then a full MS. The agent liked the MS and by then I already had a publisher interested. After a number of months, a deal was done.

It sounds simple and easy, but actually it took a lot of preparation and work before I was ready to send anything to anyone. I had my false starts like everyone else, but I learned from them.

Hope that helps.