[Erfael]

Discuss!!!

[Nimea]

Since I wasn't in the mood to participate in the last discussion (shame on me, but I tried several times, failing to be able to type anything), I better write something on this book right now.

I like Beauty. Tepper's language caught me right away - I haven't read anything by her before, I always wanted to. Now I want to read some more.
It's not as if the book is perfect. I think it's good, but there are some things that might trigger interesting discussions for various reasons.

What impressed me was the change of Beauty's voice from the young loquacious girl to the matured woman. Her time in the 1990s wasn't described in as much detail as the rest of her visits of various times and places, but nonetheless it made you realize how it changed her. This was a very interesting effect.

Unfortunately, the story dragged on too long. The drive was suddenly gone, but I am not sure at what point.

Some random thoughts (and asking for comments by others):

- it still irritates me a bit that Carabosse comments on Beauty's intelligence or lack thereof at the beginning;

- I liked Carabosses comments and still am not sure that I liked her change of role during the story; her comments disappeared and we were left with only the few descriptions we get through Beauty's eyes. I somehow felt like there was something missing

- Christianity and its use of magic . . . like a side blow and I think this is something to chew on. Not because I am religious but anyway.

- and not only Christianity, also her comments on birth control and abortion; explainable because of the rape and its result, and yet . . . It made me remember that I once heard Tepper called a feminist. (Now this all sounds a bit weird, and I don't think it says what I mean. It's not as if I do not agree with some of her opinions or that I myself wasn't called a feminist by some for nothing ;) - it's just interesting and one of the things that I remember most about the book and needed to mention. Any thoughts?)

- at times this story was really dark; I felt somewhat ill at ease - and I am still not sure if the ending was satisfying. In the first moment I indeed felt hope. Somehow relieved. But some time after finishing the book I started to wonder the overall plot, the composition and everything.

That's all for now. :)

[FicusFan]

I read Beauty and enjoyed it at the start and at the end. The middle dragged a little. It was unfortunate that I read this right after the book for the SF group, because that was so fabulous this book suffered a bit by comparison.

I liked the diary entries at the start. I enjoyed the shortness and the fact that it was to the point. I didn't mind the comments by the secret fairy aunt, but thought that she should have fessed up much sooner to Beauty who she was and what was going on.

I liked how all the fairy tales were linked together and were part of Beauty's family.

I didn't really like the future trip, the whole thread didn't really work for me in terms of a story. I have read 3 or 4 of Tepper's books and like her. I have heard from others that she uses her fiction to push her political and social agendas (which I pretty much agree with so it isn't an issue of differing politics) but this is the first time I have experienced it myself. I really felt that her themes and messages were interfereing with the telling of a good story. I also felt that the characters were not real well developed - I didn't care much about what happened to most of them.

I also didn't like her trip to the world that disappeared, to fairy or to the dangerous enchanted kingdom. I felt it slowed the story down and it didn't really engage me.

I liked the the parts when Beauty is home best, and at the end as an old woman, and is trying to save everything. I cared about her and the characters then.

I thought it was too long and had too many boring bits, or places where the story was worn away and you just got her preaching about the future and the dangers of where we are going.

I thought there were some interesting points for discussion: How it seemed that humans have lost hope/magic and have become callous to everything that isn't some commodity; how fairy with no earthiness has become shallow and brittle and just as destructive. For real people I think she is talking about a lack of balance between the mundane and the mysterious. Too much of one attribute or the other and destruction will eventually result.

Funny I just finished reading it within the week, yet it is already starting to fade.

[Erfael]

Strange, Ficus and I are in agreement on both books this month. :)

I generally liked this book, but wasn't totally thrilled with it. Since I am pretty much in agreement, I'll just touch on some other points.


As far as the non-"home" sections of the book being less appealing: I felt this during my read, as well. Though in thinking about it, I wonder if it wasn't a stylistic attempt to make the reader feel more attached to the "home" setting, the "beautiful" setting, and less attached to the other settings, each for their own reasons. I think that may be what she's attempting here, but I didn't feel that it comes off very well, nonetheless.

One of the things I thought was interesting were the people she chose to list as going to hell. They're not the normal sort of choices, but they are representing her agenda with this book.

How it seemed that humans have lost hope/magic and have become callous to everything that isn't some commodity; how fairy with no earthiness has become shallow and brittle and just as destructive. For real people I think she is talking about a lack of balance between the mundane and the mysterious. Too much of one attribute or the other and destruction will eventually result.

I agree here, and this is sort of how I view the world. It also touches some on some of the discussion that's been going on over in the Big Fat thread.

- it still irritates me a bit that Carabosse comments on Beauty's intelligence or lack thereof at the beginning;

Why does it irritate you? I noticed it, but it didn't really bother me. I did ponder this through the rest of the book, though, as she really didn't seem all that dumb to me.


This is the second book of Tepper's that I have read, the first being Plague of Angels about four years back. I really didn't care for that book at the time. This one suited me better, but still didn't really feel like the kind of book that I would go for, which is strange, since everything that she's using (Faery, twisted fairy tales, etc.) are all things I usually really enjoy.

[Nimea]

Why does it irritate you? I noticed it, but it didn't really bother me. I did ponder this through the rest of the book, though, as she really didn't seem all that dumb to me.


That's exactly the point.

And it irritated me in combination with my points about Carabosse. It sounds at the beginning like she will give comments on the whole diary, but she then leaves the picture - and I am still not sure what to think about that either.


About her travels to the future and other places: those really felt strange. The first time that happened it was so sudden I was really surprised and wondered where this would go. But I think that's the point, those non-home episodes are the contrast to 'home' and the time when things are 'better'.
I had the feeling this was also presented throught the language, it was less describing, less detailed than the past. Harder, and it was when Beauty learned more about the world, matured and had to feel the loss of beauty the most . . .

[Nevyn]

I enjoyed Beauty immensely up until I had finished the book and given it some more thought . I liked how the story was used to describe mankinds distruction of the planet , of how we as a race are draining the world of it's magic (beauty) . I liked her spin on how Oberon thought he could trick God , I see mankind thinking they're equally as clever in the real world .

I found the book to be both intelligent and thought provoking only to be somewhat ruined by a huge contradiction bordering on hypocracy on Tepper's behalf ! The whole story is about how we destroy , rape and defile and yet Tepper chose to add this for who was in hell

" Others are here, many from the twentieth. Those who forbade birth control and abortion, worshipping the fetus over all other of God's creations. "

Either way I try to look at the meaning , I still find it out of context with the message of her story , for the destruction of life is still destroying God's creation ! Yes I am a Christian but I can assure you my personal beliefs diddn't help me reach this conclusion !

Anyhow , good book I will be reading some more of Tepper's books soon .

[Erfael]

I enjoyed Beauty immensely up until I had finished the book and given it some more thought . I liked how the story was used to describe mankinds distruction of the planet , of how we as a race are draining the world of it's magic (beauty) . I liked her spin on how Oberon thought he could trick God , I see mankind thinking they're equally as clever in the real world .

I found the book to be both intelligent and thought provoking only to be somewhat ruined by a huge contradiction bordering on hypocracy on Tepper's behalf ! The whole story is about how we destroy , rape and defile and yet Tepper chose to add this for who was in hell

" Others are here, many from the twentieth. Those who forbade birth control and abortion, worshipping the fetus over all other of God's creations. "

Either way I try to look at the meaning , I still find it out of context with the message of her story , for the destruction of life is still destroying God's creation ! Yes I am a Christian but I can assure you my personal beliefs diddn't help me reach this conclusion !

Anyhow , good book I will be reading some more of Tepper's books soon .

I notice that, too, but I think it may have to do with some of the problem that she sees coming is just too many people. I think it's more of "what's going to keep the Earth going the longest," and one of the problems that many environmentalists cite is the exponential growth of population. Does having more people help the planet? It doesn't seem that way at the moment. I think that's where she's coming from with that. It seems to me that with the second half of that sentence she's trying to say that having ids left and right without concern for what it will do to the planet in the long run is in and of itself destroying beauty in the long run. Just my take on it.

[Nimea]

Mmpf, I mentioned that before as well.

Interesting take with the overpopulation. But I myself instantly thought about Beauty's rape and resulting (mad) daughter - which kind of connected the comment to the story, still I was just as irritated as Nevyn.
Right now I don't recall if abortion was mentioned somewhere else as well, anyone remembering?

[FicusFan]

I found the book to be both intelligent and thought provoking only to be somewhat ruined by a huge contradiction bordering on hypocracy on Tepper's behalf ! The whole story is about how we destroy , rape and defile and yet Tepper chose to add this for who was in hell

" Others are here, many from the twentieth. Those who forbade birth control and abortion, worshipping the fetus over all other of God's creations. "

Either way I try to look at the meaning , I still find it out of context with the message of her story , for the destruction of life is still destroying God's creation ! Yes I am a Christian but I can assure you my personal beliefs diddn't help me reach this conclusion !

Anyhow , good book I will be reading some more of Tepper's books soon .

Uh I beg to differ you most certainely used your beliefs to reach that conclusion.

A fetus is no more deserving of 'life' than hair or nails or skin, or any other part of your body that is alive because you are. It has no independent existence. Once a fetus becomes capable of living on its own outside the womb then you are talking about something that does have life, a baby, and should be treated differrently. And I don't mean life as being hooked up to machines or turning into a vegetable for the rest of your life. Until that time it is no more than a collection of cells with the potential for life.

If you think differently then be true to your beleifs and don't have an abortion, but don't try to make everyone in the world live by them too.

I think that Tepper was worring about overpopulation not only for the environment but for women, children and families. Those who are better educated, and have more money have fewer children. When you have fewer children you can take care of the ones you do have better, both emotionally and financially. The children have a better start and more opportunities.

What Tepper should have done is talked about the people in hell because they prevented the type of society which made abortion and overpopulation un-neccessary. Abortion, like any other invasive medical procedure, should be a last resort and used for medical needs only - not by banning them but by making a society where the other reasons for them disappear because of the changes in people and the society.

[Nimea]

Uh I beg to differ you most certainely used your beliefs to reach that conclusion.

A fetus is no more deserving of 'life' than hair or nails or skin, or any other part of your body that is alive because you are. It has no independent existence. Once a fetus becmes capable of living on its own outside the womb then you are talking about something that does have life, a baby, and should be treated differrently. And I don't mean life as being hooked up to machines or turning into a vegetable for the rest of your life. Until that time it is no more than a collection of cells with the potential for life.

If you think differently then be true to your beleifs and don't have an abortion, but don't try to make everyone in the world live by them too.


I am not Nevyn, but is this not a bit too aggressive response? Sounds a bit like an attack while I see nothing in Nevyns post that could trigger this.

Sorry, if I just got that wrong, but I needed to say that first. :(

Aand then: well, what you state is not a fact. It's your opinion, but the anwer to the question when life, when personhood starts is a central question to the whole abortion discussion and is not yet answered conclusivly.

I am a Christian only on paper and I had my share of Christian class at school. Yet - and maybe partly because I am not a believer - I have a problem with the whole thing. I am not contra, yet not really pro which has to do with the question of when life starts (and I am not referring to a soul here or anything). And since I think life is important and precious without believing in a god . . . well, there you go.

Actually, I think this is were the whole discussion here might get very precarious. So I will just drop that from now on and get back to the book at hand.

Again: is it only about overpopulation? Trying to remember I think overpopulation is adressed indirectly.
But: what about rape and resulting pregnancy.

I looked up the quote that Nevyn gave, finding this some lines after it: ". . . endlessly pregnant, endlessly giving birth, endlessly suckling the demonic life that burgeons out of them, with no choice in the matter. Having allowed none, they are now given none, and the Dark Lord roars with amusemnt." (p.397f Bantam Spectra edition)

This, for me, has a lot to do with Beauty's experience as well . . .

I do not know, but is Tepper's opinion on these things (as well as on Christianity) coming through here? Probably, but honestly, it's a reason why I would like to read more of Tepper's novels.