[FicusFan]

No problem Eventine, but thanks for the warning. Without having read the book your comments don't make a lot of sense. Not that there is anything wrong with them, I just don't have the context to understand them.

I am close to page 200 now. I think the book is probably not as bad as I think. I just can't seem to get interested enough to devote any amount of uninterrupted time to it. It isn't a book that reads well when you are also doing something else, like reading another book or watching TV.

[Eventine]

I tried to be vague on purpose (the hangover would have had something to with it as well) so as not to get too spoilerific.

Now something I thought about discussing earlier:
Revolution via violent means or passive means.

Robbie has trouble at one stage writing an article for The New Dawn, where he tries to sum up the advantages and disadvantages for each he can't find the energy to do it. I can't recall if it's because he doesn't believe in one side or the other, or some other reason. He does seem disinclined to violence throughout the novel however, and seems more interested in migrating to a new age than the means of getting there.

For those interested, this is also a theme explored in Iron Council, where the readers of an underground socialist newspaper, the Runagate Rampart, are divided between those who feel passive change can be enacted and those who feel they must take militant action. This is much mroe of an issue in Iron Council however, which probably reflects Mieville's active interest in socialism.

[Nimea]

Revolution via violent means or passive means.

Robbie has trouble at one stage writing an article for The New Dawn, where he tries to sum up the advantages and disadvantages for each he can't find the energy to do it. I can't recall if it's because he doesn't believe in one side or the other, or some other reason. He does seem disinclined to violence throughout the novel however, and seems more interested in migrating to a new age than the means of getting there.

Interesting. Yes, I think the whole point for him is change not violent revolution.
But as far as I remember he has trouble to write because he feels it is so obvious but yet so hard to express what he wants to say - maybe something he has trouble with quite often in the book? He thinks people will understand if they just look at the arguments and see - maybe this feeling is partly a reason for him not to be so intent on violence?
Am not sure, just started to write what came to my mind.

And sorry to so suddenly pop up here. Better start from the beginning and write about what I thought about the book.

First little quibble: lots of typos. ;) Not really something I often mention about books but reading Matt Cheney's (The Mumpsimus) comments about typos and grammar, I thought I would throw in the fact I like reading Matt Cheney and at least spotted one thing he did too. ;) Honestly, such errors (grammar not typos) can bite me and I would not realize them as I probably often demonstrate. I learned to understand English but all the rules about this language were forgotten the moment I left school.
And yet, something interesting about this is the question whether or not MacLeod has done so intentionally because of who and what Robbie is?
Don't know, if anyone knows what I am trying to talk about, feel free to comment.

Gosh, I am still quite jazzed. I am not used to working a lot anymore.

Next thing: the setting. I got the impression of Victorian age like others but both Cheney and Clute mentioned that it rather takes place in the 20th century? Wouldn't know how to find that out. Any comments?

Now my personal opinion:
I liked it . . . BUT . . .
I liked his prose, the atmosphere that was created really was fascinating, alive, dense. But dense is also the reason why it was such a slow reading. I felt like wading thick fog that made me feel slightly thrilled but nonetheless bodily slowed me down. When I started reading it was no problem to read a lot, but to take it up again and again and start was the problem.
As FicusFan I did not like "Little, Big", but this book did not remind me of it in any way. I got closer to the characters immediately and there was a story even though neither a quick nor an obvious one.

I also think the bittersweet ending was well-done. I don't have to really like it to appreciate it and see that it fits in with the story development.
But hey, there is another point where we are kind of at the point I started: revolution etc.
While Cheryl Morgan (EmCit) got really upset by what she thinks MacLeod tries to tell and teach the reader, I try to look at it more from a neutral point of view. I am not a pessimist and I think change is needed and for some change you need to revolt - unfortunately with humans that can easily develop into violence. But than again, sometimes I see reality as it is and than sarcasm is what saves me ;) [Overly dramatic? But remember, I am tired and don't exactly know what I am doing right now.]
So for me this is rather a realistic tale and not a statement about the futility of revolution. It's something to make you think and take a closer look. And this is where it really would be interesting to hear what the author has to say about it.

By the way, he has another book in this alternate reality coming up in 2005. It will be called 'The House of Storms' and is set about a century after The Light Ages. I think I want to read this - even if it takes me ages to finish. ;)

Some other things:
The comparison to coal or rather radium is really interesting and did not come to my mind immediately. Thanks to you who discussed that. :)
What I thought about aether right away was how magic was turned into something mundane. They make unicorns and dragons but all the mystery, all that what fascinates some people about the fantasy genre, is lost. Magic is just something for the industry. And the creatures of myth are still feared but explained away, they are the outcasts of society, those that are better ignored and put away.
Or how George rumbles about that everything is made only with help of aether. Where people were inventive and built great things without 'magic', they are now dependent on it so much. Okay, maybe like we are on oil - and they handle it just the same way: wastefully.

Actually, here the story indeed surprised me: that there would be a way to renew aether. I did not really see that coming even though at some point I remembered the prolog and thought that the Grandmaster probably is Robbie. Or that it is hinted at that aether itself is the power behind the whole story, that it wanted to make people find out . . . any comments about that?

I should be coming to an end. Just some things about the characters.
I found them interesting and not shallow. Robbie even grew a bit on me in the end. His love for Anna was well done - and also how and why she refuses him. At first I disliked Anna and almost started to think her badly done, but I changed my mind. IMO this dialogue between them at the end when she tells him that she is not one to love someone else - I think that fits and it reconciled me with her, for suddenly I had another perspective from which to look at her.

One character I particularly liked was actually Sadie. I don't know but she fascinated me and she was the only one that kind of showed some humor. She was trapped in her life, in the position she was born in and was not ever really able to break out even though there were times I felt like she wanted to. Short moments maybe. She liked her life nonetheless, just like Robbie was drawn into this life of the rich and powerful. When she finally did take action - even if it was passive - she almost brought ruin to herself, surely to her father.
And I think her relationship to both Anna and Robbie was very interesting. For a moment I wondered why she was so interested in Robbie - why exactly did she pose as Anna and seduced him? But it was really because of Anna and his connection to her, not because of himself. Was it Anna she wanted and instead took the one she could get: Robbie - and maybe even George? Or was it just the friendship and a deep fascination with Anna?
I felt sad at her death and how it was told. But then again both were so fitting.

I better stop now.

There are a lot of interesting things in this book and it is really a good book to discuss. I even liked some things quite much. But the slowness - which I first thought was me and the stress, but others obviously had the same problem - stops me from giving it anything better than 3 out of 5 points. Really worth to read, but not a book I will easily recommend.

[Nimea]

Forgot to mention: it's not the first time that I am sorry not to have read any Dickens yet, especially Great Expectations. :(
Here in school Dickens is not really something we read, we can be happy if we at least read some Englisch literature. And so far I never got around to read Dickens on my own. One day I will . . . as I will read all the books in my to-read-pile one day . . . :rolleyes:

[FicusFan]

I am still reading so I haven't gotten to any of the points you talk about Nimea. But I would have to strongly disgree about one thing-- for me the characters are awful. Just like in Little, Big I have no interest or belief in them as people. They don't act or feel or react like anything that is flesh and blood, they are flat constructs on the page. That perhaps is one of the reasons the book reads so slowly for me. If I turned the page (around page 200) and they all went up in flames and were replaced by others it wouldn't make a difference to me in the reading experience (well actually the story might improve if they were replaced by better characters).

I don't see any reason, or experience any emotion that explains why Robbie has any feelings for the young Annalise or the older Anna. I don't see that he cares about his family or his mother and what happened to her. He is also as detached about his new friends in London.

The only person he really seems to be engaged with, that I can understand both intellectualy and emotionally, is the old lady, Mrs. Sommers. He does not really care for her, but he is curious, and both attracted and reviled - because of his social conditioning, by her as though she were a circus freak, or a lurid accident on the side of the road.

I also have no real sense of him being a revolutionary, or of his desire for change. He is mostly passive and totally bloodless to me.

If the characters were good then I would probably have no problem with the wordyness and the time the author spends writing for setting and atmosphere. But because they aren't good for me, I keep putting it down as soon as I can and I don't pick it back up again as often as I should.

[Nimea]

Yes, we definitely disagree there. ;)

I know what you mean about Little, Big, but again - here for me that is not the case. Maybe they are not perfect or rather the way they are written is not entirely perfect, but not bad enough for me.

For example I think the love he feels for Anna fits well into the whole story. He sees her, he falls for her - as people sometimes do without reason - and his obsession with her shows through little things. At the same time it's clear that the feeling is only on his side and not only here he does not really get what he wants.

Or his connection to his mother. I thought that was rather well established in the way he describes her gaucheness or how she treats him and where she takes him.

And sorry, if I had spoilers in there :( Should have thought about you still reading it. But I was just so relieved that I finally manage to finish it and to finally find time to write about it . . .

[Rob B]

I'd be interest in seeing an interview with Macleod re socialism in this novel (can't you snag one Fitz?).
This is the first time I've popped into this thread. Are you asking if I can find an interview with Macleod or if I would interview him myself?

[Eventine]

Was it Anna she wanted and instead took the one she could get: Robbie - and maybe even George? Or was it just the friendship and a deep fascination with Anna?
I got the feeling that she just wanted to be loved, and seeing the men around her swooning for Anna wanted to be more like here. Of course, there was some of Anna's social "magic" there, her ability as a changeling to fit in making Sadie want to be more like her.

I also have no real sense of him being a revolutionary, or of his desire for change. He is mostly passive and totally bloodless to me.
That's what I was trying to get at above (in my own stumbling way). I couldn't ever understand his motivation for change.

This is the first time I've popped into this thread. Are you asking if I can find an interview with Macleod or if I would interview him myself?
If you could do it yourself. You've had some luck in the past with Flewelling and Marillier. Or maybe it's just with female authors with long names :)

[FicusFan]

Yes, we definitely disagree there. ;)

I know what you mean about Little, Big, but again - here for me that is not the case. Maybe they are not perfect or rather the way they are written is not entirely perfect, but not bad enough for me.

For example I think the love he feels for Anna fits well into the whole story. He sees her, he falls for her - as people sometimes do without reason - and his obsession with her shows through little things. At the same time it's clear that the feeling is only on his side and not only here he does not really get what he wants.



Well I agree that he seems obsessed with her, but only because he follows her and thinks about her -- but there seems no reason that makes sense or works for me. Even if he doesn't understand his own obsession, there should be some trigger and for me so far I don't see it. It just seems like something the character does because it is written on the page, nothing that arises from who he is, what he wants, or what he feels.

I don't have a problem that it is a one sided passion, just that there seems to be no real passion.



Or his connection to his mother. I thought that was rather well established in the way he describes her gaucheness or how she treats him and where she takes him.



There are words on a page about their relationship, but nothing that to me makes it a better, or stronger one than he has with his sister or his father. Robbie just spends more time with her. He also seems more upset that the neighbor kids are making fun of him, than that she is ill and dying. That part actually seems real, but since it is the only real emotion I can find between them it is hard to see her death as motivating him to leave or creating his desire for change. He seems to want to blend in, but just at a higher level than he can get with his family standing.



And sorry, if I had spoilers in there :( Should have thought about you still reading it. But I was just so relieved that I finally manage to finish it and to finally find time to write about it . . .

Don't worry Nimea it is fine. This is where people are supposed to talk about what they read, not keep it to themselves. It is my risk for coming in before I am done, so please don't feel restrained from discussion because of me. :)

One of the things I wonder, is back when Robbie is a kid in Bracebridge and is going kind of secretly to the Grandmaster's house on half work days. It strikes me as the kind of thing that is really a cover for an older man who has an inappropriate relationship with a child. I don't know if thats because it is kind of creepy or just because that is the fear today and the first thing you think of. Killing him seemed a bit extreme to break off a normal relationship that was over. He is so bland about it that I wonder if it was all really started by accident. So did anyone else get that vibe and wonder what their relationship really was ? I don't know if the author was trying to be coy so that there was a question about what was really going on, or if it was just so weakly written that it wasn't clear, or just me drawing conclusions that aren't there.

[Erfael]

Wow. I disappear for a few days and it explodes around here.

I'll address some things at random as they come to me.

One of the things I wonder, is back when Robbie is a kid in Bracebridge and is going kind of secretly to the Grandmaster's house on half work days. It strikes me as the kind of thing that is really a cover for an older man who has an inappropriate relationship with a child. I don't know if thats because it is kind of creepy or just because that is the fear today and the first thing you think of. Killing him seemed a bit extreme to break off a normal relationship that was over. He is so bland about it that I wonder if it was all really started by accident. So did anyone else get that vibe and wonder what their relationship really was ? I don't know if the author was trying to be coy so that there was a question about what was really going on, or if it was just so weakly written that it wasn't clear, or just me drawing conclusions that aren't there.

I didn't really get an inappropriate vibe off of this, though it did cross my mind. It seemed to me more likely that the Grandmaster felt badly about his part in Robbie's mother's condition and wanted to somehow make it up to Robbie, so he had him in for food and time spent. I also think that he may have been somewhat responsible for planting some of Robbie's anti-aether feelings in all of his experiments with electricity and such.
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I also wasn't quite convinced by Robbie's revolutionary ideas. But I'm not sure that isn't the point. Given how the end turns out, it seems that the ovreall message itself is a little clouded. While being dsgusted and appalled at what aether does to his mother, Robbie is also drawn to the sort of life the grandmasters have -- the parties and wealth and such. I almost see his quest for reconciliation as parallel to his quest for Anna - almost unattainable.
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Re: typos. I didn't really notice as many as I do in other books, and I tend to notice a lot if they're there. Maybe it's your edition.
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What I thought about aether right away was how magic was turned into something mundane. They make unicorns and dragons but all the mystery, all that what fascinates some people about the fantasy genre, is lost. Magic is just something for the industry. And the creatures of myth are still feared but explained away, they are the outcasts of society, those that are better ignored and put away.

I think this is a pretty good point. Not just in regard to magic, but in regard to anything that is commodified and sold to the masses in today's world...it gets to the point it's taken for granted.
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Eventine, I'm working on trying to put some thoughts together on this and Iron Council. So far they're not clicking well together, but it's been some time since I've read the Mieville.

Some potential Iron Council spoilers here:

The biggest contrast for me has to be that between Ori and Robbie. Robbie is so passive while Ori so militaristic. I guess the biggest problem I'm having with trying to draw parallels between these books is that they approach the revolution from such different perspectives. Robbie's story lets you know pretty well why he wants the revolution and how both sides of the conflict stand. Ori's story (at least as I recall) tends to show it from just one side. I honestly can't remember...when the Iron council went renegade in Iron Council, was it with violence or without? I guess ultimately neither book allows the protagonists to really succeed in their revolution, though they both offer some sort of symbol of hope for the future.

I will continue to think on the Iron Council issue.
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The last thing I've been thinking about has been the evolution/revolution issue. It really seems that Robbie feels that the society should evolve into something greater and inherently more fair rather than be forced to do so by revolution, though he's really in no position to make that happen at all.

One of the more interesting things about this book, I found, was that though Robbie was peripheral to all of the really important things that happened, other than the discovery of the number bead. He seemed to be one generation late to the events of the engine floor and he was a relative non-entity in the uprising. The main story seems to happen offstage in this book, which I found to be a really interesting technique.

Thinking on it, I found Little, Big to be the same sort of thing -- the happenings were sort of around the edges of the narrative. I also really liked that book.