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Loque
March 25th, 2002, 08:11 AM
ok, now i am a big fan of gladiator but what the hell was the fighting about? firstly the legions at the start, where was all the discipline? and in the arena, where were the stabbing moves? it was all slash slash slash, why? why?

saintjon
April 10th, 2002, 05:37 AM
Shortsword fighting is probably a lost art. I mean, if your fight trainer doesn't know how it would work, you actors sure won't. Also, legionairres probably weren't so disciplined once they actually got stuck in with the enemy. Whatever.

James Barclay
April 10th, 2002, 06:58 AM
Organised fighting lines are a bit of a myth anyway, I reckon. There's an old maxim that says that no plan survives first contact and that would apply to in-line discipline too. If you think about it, as a swordsman, you're going to be able to see nothing much bar the next guy who's trying to kill you and that's bound to be your focus. Chaos wil inevitably ensue...

Loque
April 10th, 2002, 08:40 AM
yes, but there was absolutelty no discipline, whereas numerous reliable historical accounts talk about the roman discipline and tactics.

James Barclay
April 10th, 2002, 10:17 AM
There is no doubt that the Romans had a discipline in battle that was beyond their opponents' but I suspect there is still a little 'rose tinting' in the accounts which will, after all, have been written by the victors. But hey, what do I know? I wasn't there.

Another thought is that the chaotic nature of the battle in Gladiator made better cinema...

kassimir funk
April 10th, 2002, 12:45 PM
read a little

romans vs macedonians
http://users.hol.gr/~ianlos/e991.htm

some good roman army info
http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/reparmy.html


Notice the macedonian phalanx in the first link. It is the final culmination of the greek phalanx. In that kind of formation, you've got to stay close and stay organized.

The key to the success of the Roman legions was in their versatility. They were the world's first full time, government employed soldiers, complete with chain of command. Tacticaly, they could organize into various formations, and reorganize and reorganize until they found something that worked.

Da Funk



[This message has been edited by kassimir funk (edited April 10, 2002).]

Ogg
June 7th, 2002, 08:33 AM
Or just retake ROME again and again over several hundred years. Good Training that, you understand, taking over Rome and making the General Ceaser!

Cadfael
June 7th, 2002, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by NOM
Organised fighting lines are a bit of a myth anyway, I reckon. There's an old maxim that says that no plan survives first contact and that would apply to in-line discipline too. If you think about it, as a swordsman, you're going to be able to see nothing much bar the next guy who's trying to kill you and that's bound to be your focus. Chaos wil inevitably ensue...

Trust me... that is so true, even in todays modern warfare... or at least the 1980's... planning is only good for so much... once close contact is made all plans count for nothing... and it is chaos... albiet organised chaos to a certain extent.

The 'stabbing' sword for the Roman Centurions was only really effective on the battlefield... the roman would form a wall with their shield and 'stab' through the gaps in them. One to one combat was a different thing... and the important job there from what I can understand was to get your oponent on the ground or incapacitated as quickly as possible... and then deliver the killing blow or 'stab' if that was the case.

In the middle ages it was also a case of bashing your armoured opponent to the ground rather than cut'n'thrust... a smaller 'dagger' like blade would then be used to slip through the chinks in the armour to finish the guy of. I think this blade was know as a 'main gouge'... but I am not too sure about that.

estranghero
June 8th, 2002, 10:55 AM
I think that's main gauche (hope I got that French right), a smaller blade for the left hand since most swordsmen were right-handed. Though wasn't this after the Middle-ages?

Same also applies to those swordbreakers (i.e. right hand-sword, left hand-swordbreaker).

asimovian
June 15th, 2002, 03:11 PM
quote
yes, but there was absolutelty no discipline, whereas numerous reliable historical accounts talk about the roman discipline and tactics
unquote

Loque :
Ah. Another movie with sloppy directing and technically perfect special effects to supplant the directing.