[Erfael]

Discuss please.

[Rob B]

Quote from my review to start off my thoughts:
These questions of reality and our place in the world are at the core of speculative fiction. Throughout The Etched City, Bishop uses this ideal as a tool very effectively, invoking numerous ways through the eyes of her characters, in which we can question their world, and in turn, our own reality. This is not to say the novel is entirely concerned with philosophy, for Bishop has a knack for writing philosophical debates as well as bloody battles. The physical interactions and fights were as stimulating as the philosophical debates.

I think there was some good misdirection going on here, too. When I felt comfortable with where the story was going, something would crop up and I'd feel unsettled. A good sort of unsettled, mind you, as good writers don't allow their readers to feel too too comfortable.

[Prunesquallor]

I haven't participated in one of these before, so I have questions -
How does the discussion proceed? Fitz's comments, for example, were quite general. Is this on purpose, out of considerations for other readers? Do we read the whole thing or comment along the way? Are we discussing this as readers/writers/both? Sorry....

Regarding the book, I've gotten through part one, and am enjoying it quite a bit. I thought the opening was very good. The place, characters and situation are interesting and adequately developed, and quickly acquire a familiar feel though there are a lot of interesting questions to be asked.

EDIT: ok, one nit to pick: there was the one scene early on where Raule rests - her eyes but not ears close, and then she is counting ants as they go by. Maybe is it is a hint, or (more likely) an author's slip. It seems an odd slip though, and it distracted me.

2nd edit: I did like the heroes being undone by their heroic nature

[Erfael]

Prune,

As far as the discussion here goes, it's a free-for-all. Spoilers abound in the botm threads. If you're not finished and you don't want anything spoiled, you may want to beware, as anything is fair game here. And speak as a reader, a writer, an editor, anything you like. Some people read all the way before commenting. Some people read the comments and then the book.

Speaking of which, I need to get my thoughts together on this one and do some posting.....

[FicusFan]

Well I have finished the book. I enjoyed it, but can't for the life of me come up with anything coherent to say about what the story meant or was trying to say.

Coming so soon after another literary book (The Light Ages) I was expecting another torturous slog. Supprisingly I really liked the writing. It was literary but also full of life and I enjoyed the characters and the fact that the story moved on. Every time I picked it up I was surprised all over again at how much I liked it.

I was not expecting a skewed western. That was very interesting, as was the fact that the city with its water and humidity was almost the exact opposite of the burning desert.

I liked Gwynn very much. He was both mysterious and substantial. So often mysterious characters are barely sketched in. Though I would have like more details about his transgression and ejection from the northern society.

I liked Raule less. She seemed to be a hypocrit. She wanted the fame, glory, and excitement of being a rebel and a criminal and then disdained the methods used to be that. She was fine with killing people to save her life, and then she treated Gwynn like he was dirt, yet he did the same thing she did.

I was kind of bored with the religious debate between Gwynn and the Priest, except where Gwynn said it seemed god was winnowing the meek, and he wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley. I liked that. I found the ending with the redemption of the priest, and his sacrifice to bring Gywnn back a messianic cliche.

I wonder if the author was trying to talk about love and its impact because there were so many examples: the Priest and his god, the Priest and his whores, Marriot's unrequited love for Tareda, the father and son crime duo, Elm and Elei and father/son love, Colonel Bright and his love for a colonial military fantasy, Beth and Gywnn who were so fascinated with each other they couldn't admit to love, and Raule and her dead babies - which seemed to me to represent not only the decay and evil of the city, but what she thought was inside herself, because she had no real feelings of conscience.

I also thought Beth's art was important but I am not sure exactly what Bishop was trying to say with it. So much of it was monsterous and it seemed that maybe Beth was also expressing the soul of the city to mirror the actual dead babies that Raule was delivering. Not really sure other than that.

So I enjoyed it, other than a few things I mentioned, but am not really sure I understand it, or know what the hell it is about. :D

[Erfael]

Another thing that I seemed to almost notice (it was tickling at the back of my mind, without ever really coming together for me) was that all of the characters seemed to be missing something. (some of this is just guesswork as it never really gelled for me. I think it might in a second reading of some sections, but haven't had a chance to do so.) For Raule it was her conscience, for the priest his former ability to heal, for Gwynn it was the ability to truly love (did Gwynn really love Beth? I got the impression that though he might want to love her, it just wasn't there in him somehow). I don't really have a clear idea on the other characters, but it's just something that tickled me on the way through.

I also have to say I didn't have a very clear idea of what the book was trying to do, though I enjoyed it throughout.

There also seemed to be some focus on metamorphosis or fundamental change, with Beth and the sphinx as the most obvious, but also with R&G. either successful or unsuccessful. For Gwynn and Raule, the city struck me as their cocoon, where they came to spend time before being spat back out into the Copper Country as different people. Other examples that come to mind are the wife to the axe, the priest's redemption, the dead babies, half-changed.

Did anyone get a nice-guy vibe off of Gwynn? I felt like he was a nice guy so much of the time that it was very jarring when he would do something cold and heartless.

That's an interesting point about the soul of the city, Ficus, but I never got any impression that the city was especially twisted or corrupt, unless we talk about the slave trade, which in its presentation didn't even seem to be cast in an especially bad light.

[Prunesquallor]

I am now about half way through, and am less enchanted with the second section that I was with the first. The interesting thread of the story at this point seems more like a frayed rope, the characters are developing slowly, some of the descriptive stuff seems to exist for its own sake. Still enjoying it though

Did anyone get a nice-guy vibe off of Gwynn? I felt like he was a nice guy so much of the time that it was very jarring when he would do something cold and heartless. not especially. More like a good in his way (trustworthy, etc) guy, rather than nice

I liked Raule less. She seemed to be a hypocrit. She wanted the fame, glory, and excitement of being a rebel and a criminal I didn't get that - I thought it was pretty clear she fought with the rebels for idealistic reasons. if she wanted those things, why the work for the poor?

she treated Gwynn like he was dirt, yet he did the same thing she did. I think their occupations were quite different, and this was the source of the disdain

more to come.......

btw, thanks Erfael

[FicusFan]

Another thing that I seemed to almost notice (it was tickling at the back of my mind, without ever really coming together for me) was that all of the characters seemed to be missing something. (some of this is just guesswork as it never really gelled for me. I think it might in a second reading of some sections, but haven't had a chance to do so.) For Raule it was her conscience, for the priest his former ability to heal, for Gwynn it was the ability to truly love (did Gwynn really love Beth? I got the impression that though he might want to love her, it just wasn't there in him somehow). I don't really have a clear idea on the other characters, but it's just something that tickled me on the way through.

I also have to say I didn't have a very clear idea of what the book was trying to do, though I enjoyed it throughout.

There also seemed to be some focus on metamorphosis or fundamental change, with Beth and the sphinx as the most obvious, but also with R&G. either successful or unsuccessful. For Gwynn and Raule, the city struck me as their cocoon, where they came to spend time before being spat back out into the Copper Country as different people. Other examples that come to mind are the wife to the axe, the priest's redemption, the dead babies, half-changed.

Did anyone get a nice-guy vibe off of Gwynn? I felt like he was a nice guy so much of the time that it was very jarring when he would do something cold and heartless.

That's an interesting point about the soul of the city, Ficus, but I never got any impression that the city was especially twisted or corrupt, unless we talk about the slave trade, which in its presentation didn't even seem to be cast in an especially bad light.

Well I thought the city was described as being rank and decaying, with the heat and the damp. The buildings were falling apart, and the greenery had run amok. The river that ran through it was dirty, and full of crocs, sewage, trash and corpses. The people who lived in the section where the story takes place are the poor, the faded and the crazy. They are either victims or perps. Nobody cares if there are murders in the street or in the bars. In fact there can be oraganized fights to the death for two, or an entire cavalry charge and nobody cares. The slave trade is openly conducted and it seems the only thing the city officials are upset about is losing the taxes on them. The city also seems to feed off the war and the misery of both sides. The medical guild has no interest in accepting deserving students and those who want to learn, but is rather dedicated to making money and observing social rank. Their members also don't help or work in the hospitals and medical establishments that deal with the poor. There is a drug dealer who sells not only escape but poisons and right out of his own home. Then there are the dead babies and the monsters born alive but who die or are quickly killed. In our world that would mean some kind of toxin, in theirs I think it means that the magical energies are out of sync. So to me it all added up to a city that is depraved and corrupt.

No I never thought Gwynn was a nice guy, just that he didn't have any problems with being bad and so was not always trying to hide it, make excuses for it, or put a positive spin on it. He also struck me as someone who had limits to what he would do, but they were much farther into bad than most people will go.

I think you are onto something Erf, with the idea of transformations because there was a lot of that going on, and even the drug dealer guy was selling short-term transformations, as was the seance.

I don't know if Beth & Gwynn loved each other or not, but it seemed to me they wanted to on some level but were too busy with their own hang-ups to take it seriously, and spend the time they needed to work it out. it seemed that their hearts and their bodies were almost in love, but then their minds would kick in and spoil it. It may also be that neither was really able to love so they just had to fake a close approximation.

Perhaps Gwynn and Beth need each other to transform. Beth's art changed because of him, and he ended up swallowing her hair to keep her as a part of him.

[Rob B]

RE: transformations - I got a sense one of the over-reaching themes of the novel was change and a sense of movement, not much really seemed static about the novel. The characters changed, the settings changed and people did transform.

[Prunesquallor]

The cocoon business (and the lobotomy stuff as well) does seem to suggest something about fundamental change, but I don’t see any of that sort of change in the book, other than perhaps Beth (and possibly Raule, insofar as she becomes less idealistic). And the stillborn croc-thing, which was supposed to bring change, works against this understanding doesn't it?

I think it is more about how people enter and influence each others lives for a time, how in a sense we live in our own world, one which intersects with others. The key here is the philosophical theory that is mentioned twice - first as the product of a dispute between two philosophers (after having a quarrel they never seem to see each other again despite living near each other) and the second time by Beth.

Consider the interesting intersections between these lives (and how often this involves one saving or destroying someone):
Raule and Gwynn,
Gwynn and Marriott,
Gwynn and the Rev,
the Rev and God,
Beth and Gwynn,
Gwnn and those who "do business" with him, such as the strongman

even the lesser characters:
the two coshboys fighting it out
Pearl and her murderer
Marriott and the boy he has a fight with

Consider how the paths of their lives converge, affect others, and diverge, how just having Beth around G’s friends seems to change them.

I think Beth’s etchings (at least at one point, I think the second set) are depictions of Gwynn from the perspective of those he has “done business with”, how he entered and changed their lives, who he was in their world.

I think this book had potentional to be the sort of book you close and go "wow", but missed the mark. Though it was still interesting and well written and at parts beautiful.