[intensityxx]

I also don't really consider films art, and so I don't think it is possible for anyone to change or alter real art, short of actually hacking it up. I was thinking of the classic nude works that had historically been painted over in another era with fig leafs, etc., or the rewriting of classic text to reflect PC sensibilities.
I would say if Doctorow had a theme regarding the changes at Disney, it would be the more generic: preservation (and honoring tradition) vs change as part of real life (and the requirements for modernization). I don’t think it is just about art. Sounds good to me.
No I didn't find the book or the material difficult, it just didn't engage me. I didn't mean to sound like I doubted your intelligence (I don't).
If I had some sort of nostalgia I might have had a more positive response, but I didn't. That's more what I meant.

I've enjoyed this discussion; it's broadened my appreciation of the book. Where's Erf? Off playing with acronyms? ;)

I wish more people had read this. Thanks to those who voted for this book, and for including me this round.

[Archren]

I certainly enjoyed this book, although it's not in my all-time top-ten, if you know what I mean. I grew up in Souther CA, so I experienced frist hand lots of Disney stuff, and the Haunted Mansion is in fact one of my favorite rides. However, I got so burned out on Disneyland growing up that I have practically boycotted them and haven't been to the park since I was 17. However, I've got friends who are completely obsessed with the park and all the atmosphere and know "cast members" and such, and so I looked at this book more as an examination of that sub-culture as much as anything else.

As for the "Whuffie" concept, I agree that it isn't realistic, but I took it pretty light-heartedly. In fact, the biggest problem that I had with the whole book was that I took it very light-heartedly, yet there was an air of melancholy throughout the whole thing radiating from the protagonist. That made it a little more difficult to simply enjoy.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading "Easter Standard Tribes" when it comes out. It will still be a fringey speculative concept of social organization, but I imagine it will be fun as well.

[intensityxx]

I have Eastern Standard Tribes, it's been out for awhile. His newest one is out in May I think - it's urban fantasy. I like the idea of Eastern Standard Tribes, that internet cultures, "tribes", form internationally around timezones when they can be together online. More speculation about cyberculture, Hooray!

[Kamakhya]

I thoroughly enjoyed Down and Out. But, then again, I am a Disney kid too. The Haunted Mansion was the first ride my family would run to when the park opened, follows by the Pirates of the Caribbean and then Space Mountain.

I completely understood the desire to not touch The Haunted Mansion. It is sacred. :p

So, beyond the amusing concepts of what would happen to Disneyland in the future, I enjoyed the humor of the novel. It was light and fun. It was short and sweet, albeit almost too short. What really bugged me about the novel was I wanted to understand the culture better, in particular, the concept of whuffie. I felt a little let down by the superficialty of the novel. In the end, though, I rate it well (not top 10, or even top 100), but a decent quick read with some good humor and interesting ideas.

[FicusFan]

I was thinking of the classic nude works that had historically been painted over in another era with fig leafs, etc., or the rewriting of classic text to reflect PC sensibilities.

Well thats what I ment by hacking it up. The paintings covered over, the statues that had their genitals hacked off (the Vatican has a big box of marble penises :D ), or were draped, have all been destroyed to my mind.

Some things can be repaired: removing the drape or the paint-over, and others are beyond repair. But that brings up something like the damaged ancient statues that have lost parts due to age and/or neglect, and not due to any political or social agenda. Are these pieces, like the Venus de Milo, lesser works of art because they have been damaged and no longer represent the artist's vision ? As a whole person she might be a rather ordinary statue and not have the allure of the damaged one. The whole debate of whether they were removing dirt or Michaelangeo's work when they cleaned the Sistine Chapel. What is the artist's vision when he or she has been dead for hundreds of years and no one can tell ?

In terms of those who tamper with books, I laugh at them because they will eventually punish themselves. Sooner or later the true version comes out and then those who produced the edited version are branded for all time as either dishonest or incompetent. :D The pen is truly mightier than the sword.

[intensityxx]

Well if the recent lawsuits continue, we may end up seeing the Vatican's collection on Ebay. I'd bid on it. :p

[intensityxx]

I received this email from Cory Doctorow today. He's in amazing company, and tough politics for a new guy:

The final Nebula Award ballot is out and my first novel, Down and Out
in the Magic Kingdom is a finalist! w00t! The awards ceremony is in
Chicago on April 30th -- I'll be there with fingers crossed (check out
the tough competition!)

Novels --

Paladin of Souls -- Lois McMaster Bujold (Eos, Oct03)
Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom -- Cory Doctorow (Tor, Feb03)
Omega -- Jack McDevitt (Ace, Nov03)
Cloud Atlas : A Novel -- David Mitchell (Sceptre, Jan 2004)
Perfect Circle -- Sean Stewart (Small Beer Press, Jun04)
The Knight -- Gene Wolfe (Tor, Jan04)

Nebula ballot: http://www.sfwa.org/news/nebula_ballot04.htm
And as always, he ends with the free link to the entire novel, online (for those who haven't read it)
The novel: http://craphound.com/down (http://craphound.com/down)

[LordBalthazar]

Wow. What an interesting discussion this book has touched off.

For my part, I really enjoyed the world Doctorow created. While a reputation-based economy probaly wouldn't work for the reasons FiscusFan delineated, I nevertheless appreciated the brave new world Doctorow has constructed simply on the terms that it is so different from anything else I've read in speculative fiction. It takes a pre-existing idea (the whuffie) and develops it to an arguably illogical conclusion, but certainly presented an interesting and thought-provoking potential model. Another idea I loved (that hasn't engendered as much discussion) is the notion of defeating death by creating cloned timed back-ups, paralleling humanity's continuous existence to the advantages and disadvantages of our computer age. In a way, I could actually empathize with our main character when he resisted reverting to a timed back-up because, in so doing, he would have lost much of what he had accomplished over the course of his last two weeks.

Like Erfael, however, I found the plot somewhat lacking. The battle over an amusement park ride, while amusing, simply wasn't a big enough stake to interest me. Of course, this may have had also had to do with the fact that I've never been a big Disney fan. As a kid, I found their creations saccharin, and, as I grew up, stories I'd hear of Disney suing daycares for copyright infringement because they'd created their own Mickey to entertain the kids pretty much solidified my general dislike of the company. Then, if that wasn't enough, I have a friend who actually worked for Disney on one of their major feature releases and the story he tells...

Ultimately, my biggest problem with the novel, and the one has me ultimately give it the thumbs down, is the characters. Hated them! All of them! The annoying girlfriend, the self-serving best friend, and the pathetic protagonist who could do no right so that, near novel's end, I was actually hoping he'd die the real death to put him and me out of our respective miseries.

[Archren]

Wow, I didn't find the characters as annoying as you did, I have to say. They weren't terribly memorable, but they also weren't horribly whiny, which is usually what causes me to loathe characters.

I agree with most of what you said, esp. with the plot not necessarily sustaining the book. There are similar problems with Doctorow's "Eastern Standard Tribe." I think he's more of an ideas guy than a story guy.