[Gary Wassner]

And in a spacially infinite environment, we might really be a particle of dust floating in the sky of another universe, just waiting for a strong wind to blow.

What is it that matters? There is really so very little that we know.

[Scott Bakker]

We are like no other creatures, we have a conscience.

Well, around 98% seem to have one. Regarding your earlier comment about the foundational role of self-interest, Gary, there's actually a lot of interesting work coming out of the biology of altruism.

Contradictions. Contradictions. That's what we humans are all about, and that's one of the reasons, I think, commercial epic fantasy so often finds itself the whipping boy of critics. It at least has had the tendency to externalize the contradictions (into good guy vs. bad guy, as opposed to good/bad guys) that define us.

And there is nothing, I sometimes think, as contradictory as the concept of choice.

[KatG]

There's the genre of fantasy and then there's the sub-genre of epic fantasy. Epic fantasy, as we use the term, means broad-based heroic fantasy stories in a pre-industrial setting. From all accounts, China Mieville does not write in the epic fantasy sub-genre. He writes in what has been called urban or contemporary fantasy, the sub-genre devoted to fantasy stories in a post-industrial, futuristic or current day setting, which has been around since the 1970's when genre fantasy was launched.

From the time of that formation of genre fantasy, epic fantasy has been the dominant tentpole of the genre. In the nineties, the fan success and mainstream success of such series as Jordan and Martin's created a surge of new fans into the genre, allowing publishers to expand their epic fantasy offerings, but not leading to an increase in other sub-genres. This has partly led to the claim that genre fantasy as a whole is too vanilla, because of the prominence of epic fantasy.

Epic fantasy itself comes under fire because like early sf stories, it has often stuck closely to the British, courtly medieval mold popularized by Tolkein and legends like King Arthur and Robin Hood. Epic fantasy has branched out into the Renaissance, the earlier past and non-European cultures, but since it's just getting started, it's moved with glacial speed. And that may account partly for falls in epic fantasy sales that have occurred, even as a new wave of fans has come to the genre. (Thanks largely to the success of the Harry Potter books which are not epic fantasy.) But given the gamut of pre-industrial human history, it's got plenty of room to evolve, and now the fan-base is large enough to support that. But that doesn't put it in competition with non-epic fantasy, and the demand that people chose one sub-genre or the other I fear puts genre fantasy at risk of being unable to solidify and capitalize on its fan base. Nonetheless, the interest in non-medieval epic fantasy is encouraging and may in time allieviate the claim that epic fantasy (and thus all genre fantasy) is too stale, redundant, monochrome, what have you.

What also bears watching is how epic fantasy and the genre as a whole will be effected by increased interest in and acceptance by the mainstream of the genre as an established and sometimes worthwhile form of fiction, and whether the backlash that accompanies this change will also have any effect on epic fantasy and the genre. Nobody's sure. I'd say in another five to ten years, though, the complaint that fantasy stories look all alike will probably not apply, even to epic fantasy.

[alison]

I just read a most interesting and thoughtful discussion (linked from the Mielville thread in the fantasy forum) which discussed the strong influence of Tolkien on Mielville. To be barbarously simplistic, it was an argument that Mielville is still using the kinds of narrative structures that Tolkien did, transformed for sure, sometimes in their negative, but still subliminally present. I have been thinking about this: I think it's an extraordinarily perceptive observation. Mielville is indeed writing epic fantasy.

But why this apparent desire to pigeonhole?

[alison]

Contradictions. Contradictions. That's what we humans are all about, and that's one of the reasons, I think, commercial epic fantasy so often finds itself the whipping boy of critics. It at least has had the tendency to externalize the contradictions (into good guy vs. bad guy, as opposed to good/bad guys) that define us.

And there is nothing, I sometimes think, as contradictory as the concept of choice.

Hi Scott - Choice minus contradiction or conflict means no drama (aesthetically speaking). Choice is always loaded, and always made in the face of lack of choice. The most wrenching example I know of this kind of thing is the final page of The Last of the Just, an amazing book (with, now I come to think of, fantastic elements) about the Holocaust. I think what you say is a fair comment on the good/evil black hat/white hat dichotomy that does exist, it must be admitted, in the genre: the question is how much you can take those formalities and use them to dramatise human action in a way that reflects more interestingly what making a choice might actually be or mean. I think that is what Gary is getting at - am I right?

[Solaar]

Why don't you take your writing seriously? Education can be obtained in many ways. School is by far not the only one.


I forgot to add that I'm doing a parttime college course now. Granted, its web design - but anything to kick start my old brain again!

It's so strange to look back sometimes and realize what small things had such enormous influences on your life. When I was a young, young child I felt very alone and very isolated. I loved to read, and i did until the sun came up in the morning. But it also comforted me because I was terribly afraid of the dark.

Ditto. People are always shocked when I tell them I was bullied at school (I don't look the kind apparently!) and I was pretty much a recluse as a kid. All I did was stay indoors and write and read. My parents were concerned until they actually realised I had a talent and then encouraged it!

The best presents I received were pens and paper :D

And I was one of those kids under the blankets with a torch at night!

I read a book once when I was very young, called the Trolley Car Family. It was about this poor family that lost their home and had to move into an old, abandoned trolley car. They converted the seats into beds and built partitions, a flower bed around the rusted old car, they decorated the windows and turned it into a home. I did not grow up in a poor family, but to me, this trolley car was the epitome of comfort and safety - it was a real, loving home.

I wrote a story as a kid about me and some friends who lived onboard a double decker bus that was equipped with everything for our every need. Ok, it could also float and take us anywhere, but I was abour 10years old!!

Solaar
at the wheel

[Solaar]

Hey Solaar

I have no university education whatsoever, which I have sometimes regretted. (I especially wish that I had continued to study Latin, which I loved - maybe one day.) That doesn't stop people sometimes calling me "academic" (who? me?) when they want to get abusive. I just read books; that's what academics do, after all.

An awful lot of writers are autodidacts. It has its disadvantages, but it also has advantages - a certain freedom, perhaps, to be irresponsible.

Thanks Alison - encouragement is always appreciated :D

By the way, thanks also for teaching me a new word. I had to go look up what an autodidact was!!! Now I'm gonna go throw it at a few people and see if they know... :)

Solaar
autodidact

[Gary Wassner]

Yes, Alison. That is what I was getting at. The most intriguing characters are often those who question themselves, question their actions and question the meaning of what they do. Those who betray and make the wrong choices, and those who are unsure of how to act in the face of a world absent of God or gods, those who are immoral or amoral, those who struggle with the concepts of good and evil and right and wrong, those who question personal responsibility and efficacy (Scott?), and those who yearn for a reason to justify their actions, whether good or bad, are the characters who are becoming more interesting today. But that must reflect the world we live in as well, the uncertainty and broader persepctives that the media and mass, instant communication affords us and the global consequences of action.

Epic Fantasy need not paint a picture as black and white as some believe it too. In fact, it does not any longer, though you are correct in saying that the perception is still otherwise.

It will be very interesting, KatG, to see how the mainstream assimilates this new freedom in Epic Fantasy, as it becomes more of a self-conscious genre and as the sense that it is too simplistic and too 'plain vanilla' is altered.

[serindela]

There's the genre of fantasy and then there's the sub-genre of epic fantasy. Epic fantasy, as we use the term, means broad-based heroic fantasy stories in a pre-industrial setting.

By that definition, I write epic fantasy. I don't believe I heard of the sub genre before finding this thread. I just know that I enjoy total immersion in a story, and by far the greatest immersion I get is in fantasy stories who's worlds have been so well constructed and developed that I am able to see, and hear everything going on.

I write because I have to... It's the oldest answer in the book but the most accurate. These people have whispered their stories to me in the night while I am quietly trying to sleep and the stories wiggle their way into my conscious thoughts until I have no choice but to write them down.

Now, the original question: So what is it that has captured our imaginations and enticed us into these worlds that are so different from our own?

I think it is the very fact that it is so different from this world that we are entranced by it.

In "Letters to a Young Novelist" by Mario Llosa he says that writing is a form of rebellion... we rebel against this world for what ever reason and in our writing we create something more to our liking, something we find perfect.

Yes, there is strife and contention and drama in the bowels of our text, but if there was nothing but peace and tranquillity we would be completely bord. That, in my case, is partly what I rebel against, the utter boredom of peace and tranquillity.

Others may escape the cruelties of this world and express or defeat them in their writing.

I really think epic fantasy is the ultimate form of rebellion against this mundane world we live in.

[Gary Wassner]

Interesting that you see it as an expression of defiance in a way. So many literary people who criticize us for writing Epic Fantasy, as if it was, as Scott Bakker said a short while ago, almost pornography, see it as simplistic, reactionary and trite. I see it as grand, intricate, beautifully written and soul searching.

I have said in other threads that epic fantasy brings the reader to a world where ideals are clearer and the battles that we fight daily in this strife ridden world are fought metaphorically in fantasy. We are not escaping them, but rather we are dealing with them on a different level. Epic Fantasy though is hopeful still, and it can be incredibly uplifting, whether it questions the foundations of morality or not. It is noble and heroic, regardless of how dark it can become.