[Dazzlinkat]

So the question is, really, more: Can a woman identify with a female character written by a man (and vice versa)? Or: What problems does a fe/male author run into when writing about the opposite gender?


I immediatley wanted to say yes, of course I ( a woman) can identify with a female character written by a man. But then, I asked myself, which female characters would I like to be? Ummm .... ahhhhh ... LOL :rolleyes: this took me awhile to figure out. Daniele from the "Dragon And The George" imediately came to mind. Cant remember the author's name but I know its a guy. Then there is Polgara written by Eddings. There were many more that I wouldn't mind hanging out with, but these two stuck out as the ones I could really see myself being.

I am not an author but I do write, and hope to someday be an author :D The biggest problem I feel I have is worrying my male characters are either too 'soft' for male readers or too 'shallow' as in not enough depth to the character for female readers. Its a balance I obssess over.

[Quinn]

Yes indeed this is a very interesting thread!

Gender is one of those tricky nature/nurture issues. Dawnstorm, I have also learned a bit about intersexuality and about the fact that males and females actually share more biological similarities than differences. (After all, we have 22 out of 23 pairs of chromosomes in common! That's gotta count for something?!) I remember being told about an experiment where a researcher dressed the same baby in pink or blue clothes and then noted the distinctly different ways that people reacted to and treated them. (The "girl" baby was rocked gently told how sweet she was; the "boy" was jigged around and told how big and strong he was. mm.)

But back to the nature/nurture issue...I personally lean more toward the nurture side. Although i do not believe that humans are blank slates, ready to be scribbled on with culture's sweeping pen, I do think that culture has a profound effect on people. For example, it is much easier to go through life making generalistions and assumptions and putting people into neat categories - although admittedly the boundaries certainly aren't as rigid these days. And we have to have a certain amount of preconceptions (it's rather unavoidable as animals in possession of failry complex memory and learning faculties) about things to function in the world. But I also agree with Glenda Larke:
everyone is still an individual and no one is a cultural norm. No one even entirely fits the cultural norm in all its complexity.

...Racism still exists in some places - people with certain colour of skin are viewed a certain negative way, and yet it is known that there can be more similarity genetically between people from different "races" than within them. Something similar can be said for gender -it's tempting to explain alot away by referring to popular "facts". It's very boring, in life and in fiction, to say: He's male, therefore he's this and this; or She's a woman so she has to be this and this. I don't think it's necessary for a strong female character to be an out-and-out battle champion (ie conan in a pushup bra) in order to show that she's strong: that's just saying that physical power (violence) is something admirable. Perhaps we still need to modify our ideas about what is admirable in a person, despite their sex.
Now I'm confusing myself :o ...what I'm trying to say here is that there is more to women and men than their pysical features or social/cultural assumptions - human characteristics, such as shyness, courage, shallowness, honesty etc are universal, even if they're expressed in different ways. Some fantasy by female and male authors still makes me shake my head in repulsed wonder at the blatant stereotyping of the sexes - think the tall brave muscle-bound warrior seduced by the buxom, silky-skinned, scheming/innocent woman. But hopefully that's a fading trend - there are more and more authors out there who realise that this kind of story makes for mind-numbingly dull and frustrating reading.

[KatG]

See, I don't see that type of fantasy too often. I'm not saying it's not out there, but it's pretty much confined to epic fantasy and it's definitely in the minority, as far as I can tell. And even with Conan, you have Red Sonja, who was indeed buxom and possibly even scheming, but a kick-ass female character who wasn't just a male with breasts, created at a surprisingly early time period.

In contemporary fantasy, the women tend to be tougher than the guys. In epic fantasy, they may not be physically, but they often have as much displayed bravery, inward strength and intelligence as the men. The woman warrior character has been around a good twenty years or more, the woman thief and powerful magic-user even longer. In comic fantasy, as is not uncommon in comedy in general, the women are usually much smarter than the guys, which is itself a stereotype, but at least a positive one for female characters.

If I'm making generalizations about male and female fantasy writers, I'd say that the males tend to be very into war stuff and noir stuff. The females can certainly write war stuff and noir stuff, but overall, are perhaps less obssessed with these ideas. Guys also do seem to have a great fondness for the female fatale character, which I'm not sure female writers share. It's part of the whole noir package.

I'm less concerned with what male and female writers are doing than I am with how fans react to them as writers. I think that both genders are capable of doing credible characters of the opposite sex -- it is impossible to write a story otherwise -- and also that some readers will find those characters convincing and others will not, depending on their own views of what males and females are like. But the bigger deal is that the male fan base for fantasy still tends to put a premium on male writers over female writers, whether or not they're writing about male or female heroes. We haven't gotten that licked yet, I think. There are a lot of assumptions that female writers aren't going to do the war stuff or the noir stuff as well as the guys, that they're going to be more romantic and relationship-oriented, that they are not political enough and doing the big issues.

You saw that in science fiction too, where it was begrudingly accepted that women writers could do sociological and cultural sf just fine, but weren't really up to the hard science stuff, because it wasn't their thing. I suspect we have more gender stereotypes cast on fantasy fiction than actually exist in the novels out there.

[Dazzlinkat]

Actually, the 'women cant do hard science stuff' seeps from that attitude in the 'hard' sciences. That was very annoying in my college years. :mad:

Getting past a readers misconceptions about women authors is already starting to turn. More and more female authors are actually showing up on the shelves. It is a slow increase, but it is there. The biggest clue: YA SFF. Prominent female authors already there have smashed the 'glass ceiling' and young readers are growing up without such misconceptions.

[danyl]

hey.
im male, and we often have the male vs. female debate in my media classes. But what my teacher finds surprising is that Im always on the side supporting the females. Even thopugh Im male I will willingly admit that the female sex is stronger of the two.
As a blanket statement, femnales do offer thingsb that might not be necessarily easy for a man to do. For exmaple when dealing with a proiblem, whatever the nature, a woman is more liekly to show compassion than a male. I know this is not the case with all males/females. And the same within writing and the gender of the protagonist.
Like Alison said, look at the writings of Grath Nix and Philip Pullman.
Also when reading fantasy i personally rarely like a book when the protagonist is male. Because there is only a certain amount you can do with a male protagonist before certain bits become repetitive.

Also the idea that women should stick to 'traditional' values. This idea is out-dated though unfourtuately some poeple still believe it. My 15 year old brother for one. He believes that women belong in the house. Eventhough my mum has always worked and cooking etc. has been primarily done by my dad.
Im going to stop now.this is turning into too much of a rant.

But one last thing, for 2nd year media coursework we have to write a 3000 word essay on a topic of our choice to discuss. I was thinking of doin female protagoinst vs. male ones within fantasy novels.what do poeple think? would i have enough to write about? :rolleyes:

[Dazzlinkat]

Hi, danyl.

I think you will find plenty to write about, especially if you compare those characters when written by both genders of authors ;)

[Tari]

Hey,

Long time since i've posted here. . . .Danyl you are the perfect example for my literature class. Because we are a class of all girls we always take feminist views and have often wondered what a males POV would be whether they agree with us or not, and if not what do tehy personally believe. I find your opinion intersting.

I personally believe that the gender of an author has impact on the protagonist and their gender and creation etc but also i think, more importantly, is the society in which the author wrote the book and where they stood in that society. For example Mary Shelley's novel "Frankenstein". This novel can be considered autobiographical in the sense that the monster created is Mary herself and the creator, Viktor Frankenstein is in fact Shelley's father. Mary saw herself like the monster as a social outcast because of her extended education. the monster is a physical form of all Mary's aspects which step outside the "norm" for women in that time period.

"A book is a product of its society" thus i believe that the society an author inhabits and then secondly the gender and position of teh writer of that society etc has more of an influence on the protagonist.

~ Tari

P.S. Danyl I think you would have plenty of argument there. . .

[danyl]

Tari, i totally agree. the exmaple i cant help but think of is King Lear. We're studying it at the moment and his daughters Gonerill and Regan fascinate me.
For the time the plays were written, they were steeped in feminism thought, many would argue the wrong sort. Both go againstsocial expectations, and cultural dictations. They seize power, they manipulate, plot murder etc. All of these things were seen to un-associatable with women within the Elizabethan times. Though that they are working against the 'good' side prohibits how much of an effect they play would have had.
We are still in a societty that dictates that some of these social restrictions on women, Though it might not be the case as a blanket statement, many still expect women to cook, clean, bring up the children etc. and if this is what is seen to be the 'norm' within society, then it cant help but be expressed within literature. Though saying that, there will always be someone with an idea contrary to what the majority say.
ive gone on for a bit :o

[Tari]

We are still in a societty that dictates that some of these social restrictions on women, Though it might not be the case as a blanket statement, many still expect women to cook, clean, bring up the children etc.

May i point out that in Australia recent studies show that more women are returning to more "traditional" roles in society such as the "mother" or the "housewife" because peoples expectations were for them to hav successful careers and be succeessful mothers and all this other stuff as well. Society is just one big cycle!. . . .

~ Tari

[danyl]

and yet in France, a survey was done that women are expected to either balance these roles (housework and work work) or just stay at home, and that if there was children, the father, in nine out of ten cases didnt help.

i think its stupid that anything is 'expected' off a gender, purely because of their gender. why cant we expect nothing that people try their hardest no matter what they apply themselves too..