[Rocket Sheep]

Yep, Sheepie the Thread Killer they call me. They'd ban me if I wasn't a mod. Shhhh!

A lot of this genetic maniupulation felt more Frankensteinish to me. Like odd bits were slapped together at adult stages. There didn't seem to be a lot of time consuming growing and raising going on, no explanation of the young Nick's experiments growing in artificial wombs etc.

I also read that apparently Quin's Shanghai Circus was an influence in VU. Can you tell us more about that?

[JeffVan]

I'm sure I could have provided the underpinning rationale for some of the stuff if I'd wanted to, but that would have been boring!!! :)

When I first wrote Veniss, one of my favorite books, Quin's Shanghai Circus by Edward Whittemore, was long out of print and neglected by everyone, so I used it in my novel as a tip of the hat to Whittemore's genius. No other real influence--just that there is a scene involving circus animals in Shanghai in his novel that has the kind of bloody-mindedness of some of Veniss.

When Whittemore came back into print and became more known to people, it was too late to change the name in Veniss, because "Quin" had become "Quin" to me--I couldn't conceive of him as any other name.

Sometimes things become codified by accident. Just the way it happens.

Jeff

[Rocket Sheep]

I just thought, especially in the example of the kids playing... there would be some scientific types going... hmmm... how did they do it? But you're right, continuing to explain would be boring.

There's a book that I love called The Organ Grinders (it's more funny than gross... okay it's a little gross) which addresses the cruelty of genetic manipulation to a point. The thing is... the book IMHO can't really be classed as science fiction because it stands to reason that it is going on somewhere in the world right now. Why genetically manipulate pigs when, if chimpanzees were man-sized, their organs would be great for transplants and save thousands in anti-rejection drugs. $$$ the crucial component.

IMHO, this sort of stuff goes on behind closed doors and suddenly springs itself on society fully formed when the developers percieve it has a chance of going down smoothly. Like Dolly, for example. Very little mention was made of the 400 or so pre-Dolly failures or their deformities. Oh damn! Sheep again. Sorry.

But Chimps. Let's talk about chimps. Forget sheep. Chimps are intelligent animals. As are pigs. And has anyone done IQ tests on genetically manipulated pigs? Are they also wallowing in burbling saditude as scientists play God for the good of all mankind?

I think you extrapolated the right to manipulate for own needs to the nth degree by making Nick do it for fun, Quin do it for a circus and for profit, and it be regarded by society as art. That's just nasty and dark and works well in the desolate future of Veniss Underground.

[Eventine]

I've been a bit busy so hence the lack of recent posts.

I finished my re-read of the book on the weekend so here goes with some comments.

Second time around Nick's "slang jockey" narrative stands out a bit more i.e. him saying "eye e" isntead of "i.e."
He also tends to put a lot of asides in his narrative (which is something I also do :)). It does help to show his character, and the whole section works well to set things up.

Nicola's act is an interesting read, especially the end. The last few paragraphs (after her "death") point to influence from Shadrach that I didn't pick up on during my first read, but worked really well second time around. Salvador was quite a menacing character for a pleasant , subservient meerkat as well, which sounds strange but really isn't.

The third act is where things are most interesting for me though. It's here that the dark underbelly of Veniss that was barely concealed through the first two acts is exposed, and where the best imagery takes place. From the cathedral to the train to Quin's enormous fish the locations of Veniss Underground are vivid and filled with a style of macabre life.
The cathedral really made me realise the depths to which humanity has fallen in Veniss, particularly the aged twins, the lost eyeball and the flesh market. As Shadrach couldn't understand the use of most of the flesh market, neither could I. The whole cathedral seemed a machine running without purpose, much like the mining machines of Shadrach's youth - a mindless system running for its own sake.

There seemed to be two technology streams relevant to the plot: creation of living creatures/swapping of body parts (such as the lady with Nicola's eye and Nicholas's broken kitten) and actual genetic engineering (to create the meerkats and ganeshas). The former seems to require little skill, to the point where small children can create living organisms relatively easily. This really made me wonder about the "surgeons" and their role - they seemed to me to be more sadists than doctors, whereas Quin had to have actual skill and imagination to create his "new wave" of life. Quin doesn't seem beyond sadism and using the first strand of technology though - he uses Nicola's memories and the technology to destroy Nicholas.

Shadrachs arrival in Quin's realm is one of the most interesting parts of the novel. Without the human element this section seemed less horrific to me and more imaginative. The Map was an absolutely amazing creation, and you can nearly understand Shadrach viewing it as the most beautiful thing he's ever seen (although I did like our body-free meerkat's comment that where one saw form the other saw function).


Now onto everyone else's comments:

I'm not all that interested in the science behind the future, just the effects
It works for the book as well. We don't need to know how Nick creates the pseudo-kitten, just that he does.

Also, the phantasmagorical approach in the book--which most reviewers have noticed--perhaps disguises the fact that most of the cruelest parts of Veniss are taken directly from real-life events or genetic experiments in our current milieu.

It definitely seems to more that Veniss is a sort of "world gone mad" - a look to how our current world could evolve as we slowly accept issues like genetic manipulation and organ swapping. It's a pretty scary world when you think about it - a place were children have toys capable of creating hideous life forms, when it's acceptable for crones to have replacement body parts from younger women and having an intelligent slave (albeit non human) becomes a point of social standing.


A lot of this genetic maniupulation felt more Frankensteinish to me. Like odd bits were slapped together at adult stages. There didn't seem to be a lot of time consuming growing and raising going on, no explanation of the young Nick's experiments growing in artificial wombs etc.
I was sort of trying to get at that above with my description of the two technology strands, and I think it adds to the novel by showing the ease with which irresponsibility can result in horrific consequences. The scarier part though is how the society embraces it.


Well, that was a long and at times repetitious post. I've run out fo time today but tomorrow I'll start soem discussion about AI, Quin's plan and the afterword.

[Eventine]

Here's some questions for Jeff:

There's mention in the book in a few places of things being run by AI in the past. Is this a key factor in the progression of the society we see in Veniss Underground? Would the manipulation of life we see in Veniss have been regulated/banned by a human goverment?
There seems to me to be the potential for an AI goverment to treat humans/organic life as a commodity, and after enough time of desensitizing the human population would see it this way too.

Also, I really liked Quin's discussion with Shadrach in the end. It's very "evil villain" in the sense that he attempts to confuse Shadrach by making him believe that he's part of an elaborate plan for Shardrach to murder Quin, and then saying it's nothing but a random occurence.
It left me wondering which was true as well - it seems hard to believe that someone could engineer such a large array of variables for such a specific outcome (or maybe not so hard when you consider this is a man capable of creating assasin meerkats and a living map).

Until the afterword.
At this point it a lot of Nick/Nicola's "pseudo-parent" comments begin to make sense - we now understand that the twins are clones grown by Quin. Clones of Quin's mother to be exact. Which is a nice little twist. I can also see the need to include this info inthe afterword - I don't think it could have been introduced into any of the three parts of the novel well. Did you feel tempted to?

Which leads to my last question:
In your Veniss shorts, are we exposed to any exposition on Nicola/Quin? (Yeah, I know I should fork out for US shipping for Secret Life, and feel free to tell me that in your answer)

I'm also wondering how many Nicola's there are out there...

[Rocket Sheep]

[spooky music]doo do doo do...[/spooky music]

Sorry, I shouldn't post here with my sheepish thread killing ways, but I just had one Jeff Vandermeer question that nagged me thru the whole book and will quite possibly reveal me as the most annoying reader in the history of reading, but now I have a chance to have it answered: That OTHER meerkat, the walk on part, the one that shooed Shadrach away from Nicola... what happened to him? I waited the whole book for Shadrach to mention his fear of being observed by the meerkat that took his hand and led him away from her, or his prior knowledge of being dominated by a meerkat... but nothing. Or did I miss it? I have to read so fast, you see, to meet deadlines, and often end up trying to read thru my eyelids.

[JeffVan]

Re the AI--I think the bioneer technology is more of a revolt against the idea of machine tech. I think a human government is quite capable of any number of horrifying things, as evidenced by any number of governments in the past and the present. Especially a government managing a city of the future with limited resources and failing technologies. But I've left the AI period rather deliberately vague. It's not good for the author to have mapped out everything about his or her creation or there's no fun for the author.

Re Quin's manipulation or potential manipulation of matters--whatever you know of him, I know of him. He's the one character I decided I didn't want to know any more of than the reader. Writers who know everything about their characters fascinate me. How could you know everything? Why would you want to know everything?

I think the main text alludes to Nick/ola being vat grown, and possibly grown by Quin, too. I didn't feel tempted at all. In part because the afterword grew out of some old backstory notes I'd lost and only discovered after I'd already written the novel. But also because I wanted no fat in this particular novel. (My new novel, Shriek, is full of digressions and repetitions, etc., but that's the nature of it. Veniss is supposed to be a cold, sharp knife aimed at the heart.)

The Veniss shorts (which I usually only wear during the summer--cue: cymbols/symbols clash) are set at vastly different periods of time than Veniss Underground. Most of them will be collected in the Bantam trade paperback of Veniss Underground, which is nice, since they'll finally all be together. You do get more background on the meerkats, that's for sure. And flesh dogs.

I don't know how many Nicola's there are out there. Although the name is the name of my first crush, and I think I've used "Nicola" as a name in other stories not connected to Veniss, too.

Dear Sheep--re the "other" meerkat. How do you know it's another meerkat?

Jeff

[Eventine]

Thanks Jeff,
I think the sense of mystery works well - you should congratulate yourself that I'm asking myself these questions days after I've read the book!

How do you know it's another meerkat?

I had a nagging feeling when I read it that the meerkat could have been Salvador as well. Nice.

An aside from Veniss Underground:
Do you have any idea when the UK release of Shriek: An Afterword will be happening? I've really been looking forward to this after reading some of the excerpts. I dreamt about mushrooms and grey caps for weeks after reading City of Saints and Madmen...

[JeffVan]

Shriek will be out in the UK in January 2006. Out in the US in May 2006, it looks like.

It's a strange book, and I think it's my best. It's first and foremost an odd family chronicle that also just happens to involve the gray caps and war in Ambergris. Some fantasy readers may be put off by the fact that although there's a strong fantastical element it isn't my main concern in the book.

Here's the official summary/description:

Epic yet personal, Shriek: An Afterword is a tragi-comic family account covering several decades in the author's imaginary Ambergris (a city previously chronicled in the critically acclaimed City of Saints & Madmen). Narrated with flamboyant intensity by ex-society figure Janice Shriek and her brother Duncan under increasingly urgent conditions, the novel presents a vivid gallery of characters and events, including a historian obsessed with a doomed love affair and a secret that may kill or transform him; a war between rival publishing houses that threatens to change Ambergris forever; and a marginalized people known as "gray caps," armed with advanced fungal technologies, waiting underground for their chance to mold the true future of the city. This is the story of the Family Shriek, a novel of love, life, and death that brings to fruition all of the promise and success inherent in the author's previous award-winning works.

Jeff

[JeffVan]

I also think of Veniss as a kind of "failed state," if you know the term. In a failed state you have varying levels of government control--some areas in chaos, some areas still under local law, etc.

Jeff