[Hereford Eye]

Let me re-phrase: Is the human race god's creation or is god the human race's creation? What difference does it make? Either way, if a pattern of acceptable belief/behavior gets constructed, the world progresses.
When I pull up to a 4-way stop sign, I really don't care if I am following a law of my own creation or whether the protocol of a 4-way stop really exists. I am counting on everyone else believing in the protocol as they are counting on me. They believe in the law; I believe in the law, we all get through it safely. I believe and they don't, I'm likely to have a problem.

[Gary Wassner]

That's all well and good unless the law that everyone belives in tells them to imprison their neighbors if they dye their hair red.

[Hereford Eye]

In the words of my favorite bumper sticker: "S*** happens!"
Where we are today, for better or worse, in good times and bad, is because the world's great religions, monotheistic or otherwise, slowed us down, made us work together, and fostered collaboration among diverse people.
We don't always approve of the laws they made, the things they did or do, and when we don't, eventually those laws get changed. In the meantime, if a religion makes a rule to imprison their neighbors if they dye their hair red, I spect the red heads (forgive me, Intensityxx) is going to go to prison. Is that not what divides the US at the moment, whether religion or law rules the country? With religion in control, the laws they are a'changin'.

And I defy you to top that for talking out of both sides of my mouth in a single post. :p :)

[Gary Wassner]

Why is it that we need God to teach us how to behave? Is it the fear of retribution in another life? Is it guilt?

I don't want to get into a discussion about the history of religion and whether it held society together or tore it apart. I do understand your point regarding society and what binds it and allows it to function. Man has an affinity for trusting things we cannot prove and cannot explain. I think in many case we are just afraid of the animal in us all that drives us toward anarchy and confrontation. We welcome a reason to constrain ourselves.

If man is a herd animal, then religion is the shepard. The wolves of anarchy and nihilism are always tracking the herd and the black sheep, the atheists and agnostics, break from the pack and end up as dinner for the predators. Where does a good sheep turn for consolation? Where does the black sheep find solace?

Philosphy, religion, science - laughing and crying provide the same release in the end.

[Rocket Sheep]

Sheep? Why we just push our noses into the bums of the ones in front and follow meekly along, don't we?

I think most of this thread assumes sheep all think the same or it assumes that all black sheep (who are also assumed to be similar in their differentiality) want to change the fact that a lot of sheep do think alike. Perhaps that is how black sheep like it because it leaves them free to toy with their diabolical schemes, knowing that the white sheep are out there doing some necessary traipsing with noses to bums that keeps the society from full on anarchy. Anarchy, I find, is more fun if regarded as a solitary pursuit.

You knew, as soon as you threw the word sheep in there, this kind of thing was bound to happen.

Actually... I just wandered into this thread because I thought it was about four-humped camels.

PS. Feel free to substitute the word Anarchy for Frolicking if you enjoy the analogy more that way. ;)

[Gary Wassner]

Solitary frolicking? Uh oh.

Should we talk about swans instead?

Sincerely though, my heart says one thing and my mind another. Society without moral guidelines is a contradiction in terms. Yet, what should we really base those guidelines upon? If man is God's mistake and we have failed to realize our potential and are destined to always fail because we are flawed, because we are human and their is no perfection for us, then we must find different definitions for success. If God is man's mistake, and we have invented something because we do not have the courage to face our world without God, then perhaps we should invent a new god once again that embraces our diversity and the choices that a modern world presents to us.

[Rocket Sheep]

You lost me at God. I just don't get religion... at all. I never got the whole do it because of religion stuff either. Religion is an ancient mystery to me. Perhaps I am that modern thing you seek. Or perhaps I'm just profoundly ignorant. The fact I don't know points to the latter.

If man is God's mistake, does that make woman an attempt to fix him?

Are you sure there's no camels?

[Gary Wassner]

I have two totally different mindsets myself about this issue. That's why I raised the question to begin with. Conceptually, I am an atheist. It all just makes no sense to me whatsoever. But emotionally, I want to believe in something greater than us. Why, I am not certain. I imagine the need is psychlogical, and I will probably never truly understand it. It is hard to accept that each moment that passes, does so forever. It is hard to accept that every value is relative and has no basis in a greater sense of right and wrong. On the one hand, it is liberating, on the other hand, it is frightening.

The concept of God is a comfort to all those who want to believe, who need to believe, that all the pain and suffering in the world occurs for a reason. How ironic? God has become the reason for everything that goes wrong and thereby his existence is justifed

[Hereford Eye]

“All basic agreements by means of which human beings learn to live together amicably and harmoniously have grown out of prolonged thought, discussion, argumentation, and persuasion. Human institutions such as marriage, law, and government do not just happen somehow. They are social inventions, devised and developed in response to an urgently felt need for order in our lives.” (S.I. Hayakawa, Language in Thought and Action)
I think you can substitute sheep for human beings in the above quote and still not satisfy Rocket Sheep. She’ll wonder how much prolonged thought you can accomplish with your nose in the bum of the sheep in front of you and how you’re supposed to negotiate in such situations. But, we’ll plod on anyway.

My take is that we can add gods to the list of social inventions as a negotiated understanding of the world as it is. As in your earlier thread, when we get around to answering what a person is, then the next problem – if our answer doesn’t include it – “why are there persons?” Then, we’ll probably move onto the question of evil in the world – s*** happens – and then we’ll try to decide whether we are basically good or basically evil. From those conclusions, we’ll have to go back to “why are we here” again to modify the original answer. And, voila, we’ll have established gods or goddesses or combinations thereof. Without consciously working towards that goal, we’ll find that’s where we arrive. Semantically, it may be as Juzzza earlier called it but it will still be the point we get to. At that point we can try to ask whether the god(s) were there and we finally got around to recognizing them or we put them there to satisfy ourselves.
Primitive folk all developed gods but few developed a self-perpetuating central authority as the last word in knowledge of the gods. That distinction rises when we decide that we have a religion and begin to codify its tenets. Then, the religion becomes a power base and decides to perpetuate itself by declaring that only the central authority truly understands what the gods want from us. The monotheistic religions perfected the art.

[Gary Wassner]

Sometimes, and I will say this under my breath, I think we are all totally nuts. The concept of an anthropomorphic God is just so insane. All the myths that revolve around religion are fantastical, and some of the books that form the cornerstones woudl have benefited from a good editor. The characters are not real and not even well written in many cases. The battle scenes and plot lines leave something to be desired, though the one with the locusts was a memorable one. There is no credible explanation for the magic, no system that is coherent and cohesive, and the authors really just disappeared without waiting for their reviews. Also, the cover art is too minimalist for my taste.