[Gary Wassner]

When your conscience motivates you, is it guilt or virtue that drives it?

[Sammie]

Usually guilt. I'm trying increasingly to be motivated by virtue though, of late. Why is it that guilt seems to have so much more power over us? (Or is it just me??)

Perhaps it's ok to put this link (www.buyaboat.org.uk) here, while we're on the subject. (Gary if you aren't keen feel free to remove it.) This is a personal project run by Jacquin and I, by the way.....not a generic appeal from a big charity that spends half it's funds on paying accountants and lawyers. (Cynic, me??). We are telling ourselves that it's done out of virtue.....perhaps it's out of guilt at not being out there helping. Either way....

Whether motivated by guilt or virtue, if folks could pass the link on we'd be much obliged.

Sammie. :)

[Gary Wassner]

guilt = feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy

virtue = conformity to a standard of right

Guilt seems to be something that we suffer in retrospect, and virtue is a motivation, or should be.

We committ many of our actions in the absence of thought, in reaction to other stimuli. So naturally we would look back and feel remorse. In order to act with virtue as a motication we need to be contemplative. But what's just as interesting to think about is whether or not a spontaneous action could be virtuous if it was not planned. If we act instinctually, and we conform with a standard of right and wrong that we do believe in, are we being virtuous, or 'hardwired' as Scott Bakker would say?

[Sammie]

Probably both! I disagree about guilt being purely retrospective, though. I definitely suffer from Prospective Guilt!!

[Gary Wassner]

So you are feeling guilty even as you do it? Like eating and smoking, I assume.

What is the stronger motivator though? Are we more likely to do something because we fear the feeling that will overcome us if we don't do it, and vice/versa, or do we do something because the feeling of having accomplished that specific thing will make us feel good?

Either case, it's purely selfish, which is even more intersting.

[Sammie]

Ah yes, the old 'it is impossible to do a selfless deed' catchphrase. Don't subscribe to that one, myself, though I see where it's coming from.

But yeah, I feel guilty at the very thought of doing some things. Often at the thought of taking either of two options. Take last week - I was ill. I'm a medical student, I work in a hospital. So on the morning of my illness I was torn between the guilt at the thought of not turning up for work, and the guilt of the thought of going in and (a)giving patients my bug and (b) not looking after myself! So whatever I decided, I was doomed to feel guilty all day! The interesting thing about 'prospective' guilt is that, emotionally, it's impossible to seperate from 'my conscience'. At the end of the day it is the major way my conscience makes itself known to me...

Are we more likely to do something because we fear the feeling that will overcome us if we don't do it, and vice/versa, or do we do something because the feeling of having accomplished that specific thing will make us feel good?That is such a difficult question. Objectively, 'feeling good afterwards' and 'not feeling bad any more' are both incredibly powerful rewards, and psychologists have spent years trying to decide which 'works best'. (As have animal trainers etc the world over). There's no one accepted answer. Subjectively, I think we often feel that 'feeling bad' is a stronger motivator, because it forces us to carry out an action unwillingly. But anticipating the feeling of achievement, self worth, general goodness, that we get from a performing an activity can get us to carry it out willingly, and that to me is the greater power, at the end of the day.

We do things every day because we know we will feel good afterwards, without even thinking about them. We have been conditioned to behave decently towards other people, for example, without even noticing we are doing it most of the time. You could say that 'feeling good afterwards' is the secret motivator - it prompts us to do things subconciously. We notice the fear-prompts more on a concious level, but I suspect there are less of them. For most of us, anyway :D.

[Gary Wassner]

I too am often guilt ridden at the thought of doing certain things. I am very hard on myself. When I miss a day at the gym, I feel guilty. When I come home late, I feel guilty, even it it is because there was a traffic jam. When one of my sons fails at something, I feel guilty. Some of these feelings in people certainly come from not feeling as if you deserve the good things in life, so when you get them you feel guilty about them. But I also love to help people. That may sound trite, but I truly do. If I can help make someone else happy in any way, then I feel good and happy and fulfilled. So for me, the far greater motivator is virtuous. It may be selfish as well, because it does give me a sense of satsifaction and well being, but the conscious motivation is that I really like to do things for people.

I suppose that's that the classic prostitute with a heart of gold story too.

[Joe Bloggs]

Ah yes, the old 'it is impossible to do a selfless deed' catchphrase. Don't subscribe to that one, myself, though I see where it's coming from.

Likewise. Plus there's the old saying that if you do a good deed it will come back threefold (or is it tenfold)
Anyhoo, that makes all "selfless" deeds look selfish so you just can't be nice without wanting something back.

What a world!

[Gary Wassner]

If you strip the word 'selfish' of its negative connotations, or simply redefine it to mean any action, since the self is part of any action, then selflessness has no meaning whatsoever. But why is that bad? What is wrong with accepting that we cannot do anything that does not serve or appear to serve our needs in one way or another? It would not strip kindness of its value. It would not strip honesty of its virtue and positive impact. It would not strip love of its potency.

Is it the action or the actor that defines virtue?

[Joe Bloggs]

Is it the action or the actor that defines virtue?

The world around the actor, or perhaps "the audience", could define the virtue or lack thereof.

Say for example a famous celebrity is publicy seen doing something "for charity". If it's a big media circus at the time, the average Bloggs may suspect is more about personal gain than virtuous good nature.

The intention plays a part in the definition of virtue. Whether it is truly "selfless"
or is part of a hidden agenda.