How-To Discussion of Promoting and Marketing Novels and Written Works

Old people don't follow arguments so good, I guess. Cause what I get from this writer's words is the idea that:
(1) presence on the internet constitutes advertising
(2) the more places you make yourself known, the more presence you have.
When someone types into a search engine this writer's name, the more hits the engine returns, the better chance someone will go see what all the fuss is about. If the search engine reports 6 billion hits, the evidence indicates that he has been in the ear of every person on the planet, then there must be something to this writer that makes him so popular.
So, the whole purpose of this discussion is to establish that presence and thus get another hit on a search engine.

Tell you what, writer person, get yourself a posting in Wikipedia. If I can find an article about your book in Wikipedia, I may go look at what you've written. Otherwise, nothing you've written about the book has drawn my interest thus far.
Oh, yeah, I rarely look past the first page of my search engine so the number of hits doesn't do anything for me but I'm old; young people may see it differently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erebus

Just to balance things off a little bit and to change the mood, I think the brilliant and great RUSH said it best back in 1996...

Net boy, net girl
Send your impulse 'round the world
Put your message in a modem
And throw it in the Cyber Sea

From Virtuality off Test For Echo

Everyone understands the language of music...regardless of semantics. :)

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Hey, RUSH. I think I love you (and it's not just because you published my story.

On topic: obviously marketing represents yet another great pitfall for the unknown writer. It's not enough to actually have the courage and tenacity to write, and the luck and determination to get it published, you must also be a salesperson. This, of course will come more naturally to some than others, and of course there will always be disparities in the resources available to different writers. But one thing that I do not understand, Robert, is why you feel that you do not have the luxury of taking the time to develop relationships. Is there some expiration date on your words?

I was asked for advice and gave it while claiming no expertise. While I've lots on nonfiction published, I've only had one novel and the essay that caused a reaction on this site published as fiction. I was sharing more of my experience as examples of mistakes with positive and negative consequences. Yesterday, a publisher asked for a rework of a story (horror). Sorry, I don't have a success story to provide and my advice should be considered with caution.

As to crit groups, I belong to two, but don't fully participate on either. It's a matter of time, rather than philosophical approach.

Yes, J, if I was a young man interested in establishing a fan base, I would have posted differently as previously described. This is not an apology, as I think the discussion here has been beneficial to all.

For whomever asked, "Rarity from the Hollow" was extensively edited by someone who has been in the business for decades and holds a prominent position. She was more harsh than anybody that had ever read any of my work, and appreciated. This doesn't mean that you will like my novel, only that it has been put through the wringer.

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Originally Posted by BrianC

Hey, RUSH. I think I love you...

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Well, you can't beat a response like that! ;)

I am indeed a self-confessed RUSH addict, and have been since the late 70s.

If we could all write words like Neil Peart and music like Alex and Geddy, we wouldn't need any self-promotion. :D


(Sorry for going a little off topic...but it is RUSH we are talking about here.)

Erebus, can you please stay on topic...









Ha ha ha ha... oh man, anyone who has been around these forums for more than three years will laugh that one up... Juzzza, telling Erebus off!

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Originally Posted by juzzza

Erebus, can you please stay on topic...

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Sheesh, I did say I was sorry...it was just a sudden and unexplained RUSH of blood to my head in an attempt to cool the engines. Won't happen again. :D

Anyway...back on topic:

Self-promotion is somewhat subjective and opinions on what's effective will of course differ greatly. At the end of the day the proof of the pudding will be determined by what might be considered a successful promotion, irrespective of whether the promotion was deemed appropriate or not. I have to admit to being a bit confused by some of roberteggleton's comments, although somewhere amongst the mess of words is a message I'm sure. So I tried to lighten this discussion up a bit - SFFWorld should always been a fun place after all. :)

However, my references to the song lyrics (which do convey a relevance IMO) were not just designed to be a slightly off-topic diversion. It resulted in some additional lighthearted banter and references to the band in question. Now by that simple post of lyrics, many who read this thread may in fact discover a brilliant band whom they may never have heard of previously. They may in fact look them up, listen to some samples on the Net and end up buying a CD. I guess, that, in a nutshell, may sum up exactly what many of this thread's contributors have been saying all along. Promotion (self or otherwise) does not have to be aggressive or annoying to be successful.

That's a nice article by Simon Haynes, Hobbit.

He's not talking about getting multiple search engine hits so that you'll look impressive, Holbrook. He's talking about networking, not so that he can go "buy my book" -- which is a technique that can work very well for non-fiction but doesn't do so well for fiction -- but so that people can get to know him and he can get to know other people. Which is no different from authors introducing themselves to booksellers or showing up at sff conventions and talking with the participants. And no different from the SFWA site having links to author webpages and Locus and other related websites/organizations. And pretty much the same thing you do when you're trying to coordinate the carpools for your kid's soccer practices.

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Originally Posted by juzzza

Erebus, can you please stay on topic...









Ha ha ha ha... oh man, anyone who has been around these forums for more than three years will laugh that one up... Juzzza, telling Erebus off!

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I'm gonna frame that and put it on my wall...

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Originally Posted by KatG

That's a nice article by Simon Haynes, Hobbit.

He's not talking about getting multiple search engine hits so that you'll look impressive, Holbrook.

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Errr Kat, think you have me confused with HE :eek: ;)

roberteggleton;

Why, may I ask do you consider 55 too old???

I am just a couple of years younger than that, I have, over the last couple of years formed strong friendships over the net and produced three books in the process. Not published mainstream yet, but heck I reckon witha fair wind and a bit of luck I have another 20 years and twenty books to do it.

Just because you are older doesn't mean you need to rush things. Better take your time and enjoy the ride with all its ups and downs and grow in the process. You seem to be harping on about all the negative stuff. Where is the positive stuff about your work being published???


Sheepie:

What :eek: me sensible??? Have they been putting water in your red wine again....;)

I'm very postitive at work. You wouldn't believe how well I empower victims, unless you've read my novel. After a couple of beers after work and on weekends, I vent. Sorry if it's a downer. Ignore me. Sometimes, since a large proportion of any profits I make will go to save babies, I feel compelled. I'm an original appointee to our state's child fatality review team -- it kinda messed me up -- all the details provided by the medical examiner. Puke! Still, there are thousands of kids that need our help because nobody else pays attention. You wouldn't want to know but it's duty.

Here is an example of some self-promotion done nicely, with a little humor and not too much gee-I-got-published-and-everyone-loves-me ego. Why does this work? I'll offer some points: 1) Joe didn't start the thread himself (nor did one of his "friends/publicist/net alter-ego"); 2) Joe came to answer a question that a reader had and to thank Hobbit for the nice review; and, 3) Joe was nice and only a little bit self-promotionalish (tm), and that bit was more tongue in cheek anyway.

I like promotions like this little swf slide show, they give a little, entertain, let you enjoy a taste for the style, an idea of the plot: Scott Westerfield's So Yesterday

I think sending people to view a fairly artistic slide show is a nice thing. It's not heavy reading, it's not heavy selling, it's appropriate for viewing online, and if it is all about presence on the net, this is the kind of thing that people might tell other people to look at on messageboards such as this.

Hey Hobbit, finally, a use for blogs!

I've been blogging all wrong and failing completely by not blogging where everyone else blogs and blogging in private. I wondered why my friends who swore off blogging started blogging. Blogging Hell! Have I missed the blogging boat?

I'm the author of the author promotion article mentioned a page or so back, and I just wanted to give a little background on what prompted me to write it.

It wasn't written as an attack on self-promoters, more as a warning to freshly published authors about to embark on a protracted ad campaign for their new book. Even if they choose to go ahead with it, after reading the article they might do it a little less blatantly.

I find it awfully hard to bite my tongue when people are discussing books in my genre, particularly since it's a small niche sub-sub-genre containing only a handful of books. For example, this week-old thread right here on SFFWorld is discussing the genre, and I'd love to leap in and say 'hey, what about ...'. But I won't. Partly because it'd be spamming, but mostly because of all the people you want to hear recommendations from, an author is the very last one. Totally biased, and it's a bad sign if they have to go out and push their own book instead of letting genuine fans do it for them. (That's the perception, and ignores the fact there won't BE any fans until someone's read it.)

I did find a couple of my posts on here from 2001 which I'd consider spammish, but I was young and innocent then ;-) Should have read my own article.