Antihero stories?
 

Can anyone recommend good fantasy book/series with an antihero main character?
I was thinking like Gaiman's Neverwere or maybe Hobbit and Thomas Covenant.
NOT a Rincewind or any crazy humour book.

Example:
Like where the main character is a very normal person (not a WOT Rand or Osten Ard's Simon), and is unlucky to get mixed up with heroes.

The Fencer Trilogy by K J Parker might work for you.

Stopped reading the Fencer trilogy after "The belly of the bow", the book was boring. :(
After that reading is "The Proof house" gathering dust on my bookshelf.
So maybe i will try it or sell the trilogy.

If you want a story featuring a good anti-hero you could try Gormenghast which features a great example in Steerpike.

Although some might argue about the hero aspect of anti-hero being absent in his case.

You could try Monument by Ian Graham. Its about a tramp who gets mixed up with affairs and is really a bad guy but good if you see what I mean :confused:

Its quite long but reads quickly, and the ending was very good.

Gah that book is bad. Good concept but really bad fight scenes and it's hard to believe someone can be beaten to the point of death and then be up and about the next day killing other people in armed fights.

Lobat, did you get to the part where he finishes his bow?

Yes, i finished "The Belly of The Bow". The bow thing was ok, but the book was boring. It had interesting characters, but very little suspense in the book. When I started reading book 3, i didn’t feel the story going anywhere. So i stopped.

But now when “The Scavenger Trilogy” is out, I will try that. Then maybe get back and complete “The Proof House”.

Caldazar, your right about Ballas's strange extra strength, but I still thought it was good. Did you finish it? I thought the end was very good, and it explained a lot.

To me there are two types of antiheros. Those you can relate to and those you can't.

For the former, Zelazny's protagonist tend to be a little on the antihero side - esp. Jack of Shadows.

For the latter - I can't really name any. Probably because that is not what I look for in Fantasy. The only one that comes to mind is straight scifi - Gateway by Pohl.

Re: Antihero stories?
 

That's not an anti-hero. It's just a protagonist. An anti-hero is someone who is the opposite of heroic. Not a normal person swept into hero's company. An anti-hero who got mixed up with heroes would be trying to get the heroes killed. He's the villain. If the villain is the protagonist, we call him an anti-hero.

Thomas Covenant is not an anti-hero. He is very grouchy, and he does some bad things, but he's a hero, not a villain. Bilbo Baggins is not at all villainous. The protagonist of Gaiman's Neverwere is overall a nice guy who tries to do the right thing. Pratchett's Rincewind is sort of a villain, except at heart he's just an inept wizard trying to avoid trouble, and he keeps doing heroic things. So he's not an anti-hero either. An anti-hero does bad things intentionally. These bad things might be mistakenly perceived as good by others or not discovered, but an anti-hero does good things either accidentally or as part of a master-plan.

What you're talking about is the regular person thrust into the spotlight premise, which is a staple of fantasy fiction and you can find dozens of examples of such stories. The idea of taking a normal person in our real world and throwing them into a fantasy world, for instance, was enormously popular in the 80's and you might be able to find some of those in a used bookstore if you can't find current titles on the shelves (though I can't imagine why you wouldn't find new ones.) Some examples from my hazy memory: Christopher Stasheff wrote several such series, Marion Zimmer Bradley's "The House Between the Worlds," various titles of the Witchworld series (was that Bradley or Norton's?) the first Piers Anthony Xanth book, John Norman's Gor series and about 50% of all the novels TSR has ever published. You might want to take a look at Charles de Lint, who mixes regular Americans and Canadians with border- hoppening fairies and Native American spirits, and Tim Powers who has regular people, famous people and unusual people mixing with things like ghosts, vampires and Egyptian gods. Donaldson also did another fantasy series with the transport idea, with a woman this time. I forget the exact title -- "Through a Glass Darkly"? Something to do with a mirror, which she goes through like Alice in Wonderland, and probably still in print. And of course, there is "Alice in Wonderland," lots of tales from "The Arabian Nights," like "Aladdin," the limping soldier in the Grimm's fairy tale of "The Twelve Princesses," etc., etc. Look under the nearest mushroom cap and you'll find them. :)

Re: Re: Antihero stories?
 

:confused: Do you mean the pusblisher TSR (now Wizards of the Coast)? And if so: What books would that be? Would not know any with the story by that publisher about someone from Earth transported into a fantasy world . . .


And then your definition of 'anti-hero' . . . I am surprised. I always thought of the anti-hero as something different from what you say.
"the main character in a story or play but one who does not have the qualities typically expected, eg courage and strength" Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, fifth edition
Again :confused:
An anti-hero is not the villain, although he doesn't need to be good. He is not the antagonist but the protagonist, most of the time tragic and reluctant. Somewhere I even read that he re-acts instead of acts (like a hero) and does not decide intentionally for the greater good.

Am I totally wrong here or do we see that literary figure differently here in Germany? ;)

An anti-hero is someone of questionable character who gets the job done. Their reasons are their own and so they do things to accomplish their goals that are questionable.

We use this term to differentiate between hero and villain as the anti-hero is neither. Not a villain, yet not of heroic qualaties.

That's another definition that goes along with what I was taught.
I would say, kegasaurus said it better than me . . .
:)

The first thing that comes to mind (perhaps because I am reading them now) are the Jackal of Nar books by John Marcos. The main character (in book 1) has a lot of flaws and makes some bad choices, and there are lots of twists and turns involving other characters who seem evil at first but are later revealed to be no better or worse than others but are bad/good based on the context or circumstances. Moral relativists would definitely find something to like in these books, and moral absolutists will run away screaming.

I wouldn't consider Richius an anti-hero in the classic sense, but as you read on, you will see a better defined anti-hero emerge in the subsequent books of the series.

And this has been debated endlessly when it was book of the month, but some people still consider Caine from Heroes Die an anti-hero.

Okay, fine, but that's still not what Lobat was asking for. He was asking for protagonists who don't have special powers and heroic destinies. That's not an anti-hero by that definition either.

TSR/Wizards -- I was being facetious, although I seem to remember Hickman and Weis doing something like that. All I was saying is that there are numerous regular person transported to fantasy realm stories out there. For instance, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, to name another classic.

The classic anti-hero: Holden Caulfield.

In fantasy? Elric of Melnibone. Conan the Barbarian qualifies in many works. On a more recent note, I include Cnaiur from the Darkness That Comes Before, though he might more appropriately be classified as a flat-out villian.

Another classic anti-hero is Updike's Rabbit.
Robinette in Gateway for scifi.

As for fantasy, I read it for escapism and like to identify with the protagonist. On the other hand I do not mind if the said protagonist is imperfect just as I do not mind if the antagonist is not pure evil.

To go off subject a little, in mystery writing it is almost pro forma that the protagonist (detective) has some character flaw(s) (as opposed to being anti-heros).

KatG, sorry, but I am a little nit-picker. ;)
You gave examples and then threw in TSR in for a joke? They publish mostly books based on RPGs, so it sounded like a misinterpretation. And Weis and Hickman don't write for TSR/Wizards only . . .

I think Garald Tarrant is a pretty good example of an anti-hero.

Covenant is absolutely an anti-hero. Man, half the decisions he makes are totally selfish.

In a lighter and 'fluffier' kind of way.....would Haplo from Weis/Hickman's DeathGate Cycle be considered an antihero?

Yes, you are being a nit-picker. :)

In the 1980's, TSR put out role-playing games, predominantly fantasy ones similar to their mega-successful Dungeons and Dragons, and books based on the games. Eventually they added computer games to the roster. Then they got into financial trouble, and were reborn, I guess you could say.

Weis & Hickman started out writing for TSR but built up a large following and moved on. A number of other writers also wrote RPG novels for TSR and then moved on to publish other novels, some put out by TSR and some put out by other fantasy publishers. In the 1980's, stories in which a normal person in the modern world was thrust magically into a fantasy realm were very popular and plentiful. Some of the TSR authors did stories like those.

So no, my remark about TSR's line-up in the 1980's was in no way accurate. I could not tell you exactly what TSR's line-up was throughout the 80's. I was simply stating in what was meant to be a humorous manner that books with that sort of premise were plentiful then, and are still present today. Since the availability of 1980's fantasy paperback novels is somewhat limited today, I don't think my joking around about TSR is going to cause any calamities. However, if I have horribly misled and confused anyone, I apologize, and if any feel that I have impinged on the good name of TSR, well then, I'm sorry again.

:cool:

'good name of TSR' - that's a nice one. :D

;)

Whatever. I agree with saintjohn. Thomas Covenant may well be the most compelling anti-hero EVER because half the people that read the books don't even finish them because of his anit-heroic characteristics. He is most certainly a hero because...


SPOILER


He saves the friggin' LAND TWICE and has a conscious in the end.

COLDFIRE TRILOGY
Yes, Gerald Tarrant is a magnificient example of anti-hero as well. These tend to be my very favorite reads. When a character that is despised and seemingly lost finds that ounce of good somewhere within him. I'm waiting for it to happen in GRRM with Cersei's bro, (Jamie?). Yeah.

Oh good, I'm so glad he was awake and conscious at the end of the story. :)

He also had a conscience, and he had it throughout the series. He just at certain times rejected it or had to make hard choices in spite of it.

Covenant made a big splash back when, not because he was anti-heroic in the sense of being a non-heroic type person, but because he was grouchy and had leprosy. Most fantasy heroes at that time were more in the Tolkein mode -- either broody, mysterious and reluctant (Aragorn) or good-hearted, anxious and lacking confidence (Frodo.) Instead, Covenant threw temper tantrums and was diseased. Everything else about him was actually pretty standard fantasy traits. Nor was he an ordinary joe thrust in an extraordinary situation exactly. His white gold wedding ring gave him extraordinary powers in the fantasy realm and he had to become a ruler as well as a hero. Which of course made him pretty interesting.

Tarrant is more of what I've always understood to be an anti-hero character -- a villain thrown into the heroic role yet still a villain, but I yield to dictionaries. The Coldfire trilogy, however, is technically science fiction because there is a scientific explanation for the "magic" used in the story. (A physics one, no less.) It's officially considered part of a sub-genre of science fiction called science fantasy, which is a sf story in which there are fantasy set-trappings but no actual unexplained magical or supernatural phenomnena. But this hardly matters, as fantasy fans usually find science fantasy enjoyable too.

Given Columbia's definiton, as quoted by Voland above, I'd say Thomas Covenant might at first seem to fit the bill. Given Lobat's original posting, however, he wouldn't. Covenant is not "a very normal person" by any means.

As for me, I'd consider Covenant very much a hero. Not a regular one, mind, but still a hero. I agree with Crysania, but that leads me to pinning a different label on him (Covenant, that is!).

I feel that "a very normal person" - or, more general, a person unfit for the generally accepted role of protagonist - who nevertheless "gets the job done" is still a hero, not an anti-hero.
To me - and I'd say Columbia might ultimately agree - an anti-hero is some-one who simply isn't heroic and doesn't perform heroically. but who manages to be a protagonist all the same. Someone, therefore, who doesn't get any jobs - at least any heroic jobs - done at all, at least not by intent or merit.

Now that would seem to rule out Elric as well - and Bilbo, and Frodo - and just about anyone else mentioned.

In fact, come to think of it, I can not think of any main character in any fantasy I've read that fits the bill. Hmmm - maybe I should adjust the defintion a bit...

I have not seen a classic anti-hero in fantasy yet.

I bailed on Covenant after a few chapters so I can not really say (also it was quite a while ago). He was in the beginning of the book as I remember.

Jack of Shadows was the anti-hero for awhile in the middle but came around in the end.

Maybe you could say the guy from the Gor novels turned into an anti-hero but I actually would say that is a whole different topic.


I do not think that the reluctant hero or the un-knowing hero or the little-guy hero are the same as an anti-hero.

I remember some of the Gor books. John Norman, right?
A sexist, crude, semi-Burroughs/ Howard series, I kept being told at the time.

But then - yes, I remember a change. A vast one. Particularly one scene, when suddenly a member of an ostensibly dominated race rose up and said something like: "But I'm the master". Still, vague memories at best...

Help me out here, tell me a little more. What happened to Gor? Who was the protagonist again? Why an anti-hero?

Steerpike from Gormanghast!! Come on, has no one else read it?