A Feast for Crows - SFFW OFFICIAL SPOILER DISCUSSION

**theotherstark** · November 4th, 2005, 12:25 PM

I think that Margaery is no longer a maiden. She was married to Renly for too long. Renly may be gay, but he was all ready to go on his wedding night according to Lady Merryweather. He was dumb but he wasn't so dumb as to leave that particular deed undone.

The only way that I can see Cersei getting out of her little jam is finding out about Arys Oakhart being dead and making the Mountain in the dungeons one of the Kingsguard. If that is the case, Margaery also would use him as a champion, and she would get out as well.

**Cat Snow** · November 4th, 2005, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by theotherstark

I think that Margaery is no longer a maiden. She was married to Renly for too long. Renly may be gay, but he was all ready to go on his wedding night according to Lady Merryweather. He was dumb but he wasn't so dumb as to leave that particular deed undone.

The only way that I can see Cersei getting out of her little jam is finding out about Arys Oakhart being dead and making the Mountain in the dungeons one of the Kingsguard. If that is the case, Margaery also would use him as a champion, and she would get out as well.

Taena Merryweather is not to be trusted! (trust me on this point

) She could very easily have been lying to Cersei about Renly and his...um...er...member status.

As for Cersei utilizing Mountainstein for her champion, I think you are right. But I don't think he will stick around to defend the young queen.

**DwarfsTongue** · November 4th, 2005, 05:54 PM

My guess is also Dany RE Murrin's question. I missed a lot during my first read of AFFC but this I decided rightaway the reference was to dany. I hope

**asmah** · November 7th, 2005, 03:26 PM

favorite confirmation of something I'd suspected: Jeyne Westerling's mama was a no-good bitch, giving her daughter contraceptives on the sly

favorite thing I figured out for the first time: the "younger brother" Cersei dreads is not Tyrion -- it's Jaime!

favorite totally new plot twist: Doran Martell scheming to bring back the Targaryens

favorite what-on-earth-is-going-on: Pate ("like the pig boy") same person at end of book as at beginning, looks like. serious weirdness there

and also I thought the teaser chapter from Dragons was fabulous. that GRRM always making his fantasy world more complex than you expect

**Cat Snow** · November 8th, 2005, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by asmah

favorite confirmation of something I'd suspected: Jeyne Westerling's mama was a no-good bitch, giving her daughter contraceptives on the sly

favorite thing I figured out for the first time: the "younger brother" Cersei dreads is not Tyrion -- it's Jaime!

favorite totally new plot twist: Doran Martell scheming to bring back the Targaryens

favorite what-on-earth-is-going-on: Pate ("like the pig boy") same person at end of book as at beginning, looks like. serious weirdness there

and also I thought the teaser chapter from Dragons was fabulous. that GRRM always making his fantasy world more complex than you expect

1- didn't Jeyne get knocked up anyway, and her mama gave her the "day after tea" ? maybe I misremember that one...

2- yes, I thought Jaime at first, too, since Cersei popped out first, but the Maegi says the "volonquar" will strangle her pale white throat with his bare hands... Last time I looked, Jaime was missing an appendage- seems like he'd have a helluva time using that golden claw for much more than holding a goblet.
ALSO- the Maegi never says "your volonqar" only "the volonqar" so it may be somebody else's little bro.
just a thot

3- I'm looking forward to our gowty prince kicking some u know what. I think he's sly as a fox, with much more story comin'

4- Pate is the same in the beginning as Pate is in the end. And I believe if you asked J'qar about him you'd find some truths

but maybe that's just me grasping

**Overlord** · November 8th, 2005, 12:05 PM

Great forum. Frankly, I missed most of these theories the first time I read the books, be they large (Jon Snow's father) or small (Sandor is alive!).

Any other examples of reverse names such as the Alleras/Sarella character(s)?

I have my own theory to contribute. Whose head was sent to Dorne? I doubt it is Gregor's, for a number of reasons. We know that the Frankenmountain is not headless (as preposterous as that sounds) because of Sansa's vision (stone giant, blood from mouth, etc.). The idea that Martin would have Qyburn switching heads on the Mountain's body sounds a little off to me.

So whose head is it? Well, Cersei seems to take delight in the head that is ultimately sent, and she isn't happy very often. Gregor's death might make her happy, yet, I don't think her inner monologue ever reveals that she believes the head to be Gregor's. I have a strong suspicion that the head is Robert Baratheon's. I think he was interred at King's Landing, giving Qyburn access to his "recently" deceased body, and while he wasn't as big as the Mountain he was big enough that his head would be convincingly large (Qyburn does comment on the size of the head).

This would explain Cersei's satisfaction, and be the type of poetic "justice" Martin loves. Robert was, in a way, responsible for what happened to Elia and her children. I am going to look for passages to bolster this.

Any thoughts/theories on whose head it was? I don't think it is a dwarf's head as previously suggested), as dwarfs have heads that are disproportionately large only in relation to their bodies.

***isn't there a shield somewhere in feast for crows that bears the crest of Arlan of Pennytree ("Ser" Duncan's mentor from the Hedge Knight)? I think Brienne or somebody grabs it from storage. It's an oak tree with a falling star, if I remember correctly. It has to be the same shield Ser Duncan bears.

**Julian** · November 8th, 2005, 01:50 PM

Having just finished "Feast", I can now read this thread without a guilty conscience!

I thought I would come upon one or two comments concerning the following (yes, a SPOILER, of course) - but couldn't find any.

--------

Why on earth did Arya kill Dareon (pages 515 - 518)? I suppose I must have missed something, but it came as a total surprise to me. That is, assuming she did kill him, though there doesn't seem to be much room for doubt.

**Murrin** · November 8th, 2005, 02:48 PM

Think of the first chapter of GotM. Eddard executed the man because he was a deserter from the Night's Watch, and that's the law back in Westeros. Ned always taught the kids that these laws had to be upheld.
A definate sign Arya is still a Stark, whatever else she becomes.

**Julian** · November 8th, 2005, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Murrin

Think of the first chapter of GotM. Eddard executed the man because he was a deserter from the Night's Watch, and that's the law back in Westeros. Ned always taught the kids that these laws had to be upheld.
A definate sign Arya is still a Stark, whatever else she becomes.

Hmm. That's it? Somehow that doesn't ring true - though you might well be right. If so, though, I think Martin slipped a bit here. It just doesn't make much sense, if only because it ought to imply that Arya should be killing off people left right and center. It essentially makes a mockery of her (admittedly doomed) efforts to become "no one". I mean - one single sad little singer, as far removed from the Wall as she is, and she cracks?

I was hoping there might be another explanation, but perhaps not...

**Murrin** · November 8th, 2005, 03:25 PM

Well, I'd say that's only part of it, but it's the part I'm best able to explain.
There's the fact he's a deserter, oathbreaker, etc, and the fact he was generally an insensitive person. In that chapter, she seems to think of him as a bad person ("fair of face, foul of heart") simply because she had hoped he would take her to the Wall before she found out he was deserting.

**Overlord** · November 8th, 2005, 03:47 PM

She says it was "Arya of House Stark" that did the killing; which is a somewhat ritualistic response. The inclusion of her house name inclines me to believe her Stark character had resurfaced in the face of the deserter, however briefly.

**Julian** · November 8th, 2005, 04:19 PM

Okay - I guess that's just the most likely thing, then. Was it just me that got a bit jolted by this, though? If it had been a bit more foreshadowed, I wouldn't have minded at all - as it was, it just sort of came (rather obliquely) out of the blue.

Frankly, that happened a few other times during "Feast" - Cersei's downfall especially comes to mind. Rightly or wrongly, I feel this book didn't really flow very well, occasionally.

Ah well, just my first thoughts, of course!

**Gildor** · November 8th, 2005, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Julian

Frankly, that happened a few other times during "Feast" - Cersei's downfall especially comes to mind. Rightly or wrongly, I feel this book didn't really flow very well, occasionally.

Yes, i don't think your wrong with how the book flowed. I think i'd agree iwth a comment made by another member that it read more like Clash of Kings, and we were expecting a book more like Storm of Swords perhaps.

As to the question of Arya's future personality, i think she may use ' Arya of house Stark ' as her alter ego, if you will. Her was of striking out at the people who have comitted a wrong, remember the linaty of names she spoke to herself ' Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling' etc

Her future role as a Faceless man/woman ( err? ) may revolve around killing, yet if thats the case who woud she work for, herself? some higher person in Bravos? i think shes destined to meet up with J'qar again ........ eh who knows!

And good observation Overlord, i think i remember something like that, though i don't have the book on hand to check it up,

**Gildor** · November 8th, 2005, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Julian

Frankly, that happened a few other times during "Feast" - Cersei's downfall especially comes to mind. Rightly or wrongly, I feel this book didn't really flow very well, occasionally.

Yes, i don't think your wrong with how the book flowed. I think i'd agree iwth a comment made by another member that it read more like Clash of Kings, and we were expecting a book more like Storm of Swords perhaps.

As to the question of Arya's future personality, i think she may use ' Arya of house Stark ' as her alter ego, if you will. Her was of striking out at the people who have comitted a wrong, its very much her life as a Stark still very much inside her! Remember the linaty of names she spoke to herself ' Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Cersei' ( Wouldn't that be justice, Arya embedding her knife into Cersei, HAH! )

Her future role as a Faceless man/woman ( err? ) may revolve around killing, yet if thats the case who woud she work for, herself? some higher person in Bravos? i think shes destined to meet up with J'qar again ........ eh who knows!

And good observation Overlord, i think i remember something like that, though i don't have the book on hand to check it up.

**Cat Snow** · November 9th, 2005, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Overlord

She says it was "Arya of House Stark" that did the killing; which is a somewhat ritualistic response. The inclusion of her house name inclines me to believe her Stark character had resurfaced in the face of the deserter, however briefly.

I agree, Overlord. Considering running into Sam was one of the first contacts she's had (albeit indirectly) to the one family member she connected with (Jon) (and the only family member she believes to be alive still)... and then she is in contact with Dareon, who is not only a deserter of the Watch, but a deserter to Jon. Somebody who mocks all the things that Jon, Eddard, and so many others from her past, uphold.

I don't blame her for killing him- I was actually pleased by it. And I think it was not viewed as negative by her mentor, either. I think it meant she was ready for the next phase of training- seeing without the eyes.

As far as her meeting J'quar- I believe she will find him in the form of Pate- working with/near Samwell.

'tis destiny