A Feast for Crows - SFFW OFFICIAL SPOILER DISCUSSION

[Cat Snow]

I enjoyed your "random thoughts"... here are just a few of the random replies that I have!


3- regarding Catlyn... I wonder if the emotions you have at the time of death are the ones you carry into an "undead" state? I wonder if when she discovers most of her children actually live (assuming she does), if it is possible for her to change in any way?

4- re. Dany- I still am in the old camp of followers who believe that the three heads will actually ride, since there happens to be three dragons in Dany's care. I still believe it will be Jon and Tyrion with Dany... all of Targaryen blood (I think ) However, I believe that Martell and Barristan will prove vital to the fight for humanity when the cards finally play out. (Oh, and I miss Maester Aemon, too. I'm dying to find out what the book says that he wanted Jon to read!)

6- Cersei... I wonder how it will go for her, too. She will undoubtedly die at some point (as per the Maegi's prophecy), but it is supposedly to happen only after her children are all dead. I will sooo enjoy "watching" her flogged

7- I'm torn when it comes to Littlefinger. First off, are the things he tells Sansa merely the things he wants her to believe? Or is her beauty and likeness to his first love a dire weakness for him? Some people have suggested he is actually in cahoots with the Others, and will play a huge role in the coming winter's war. Could he be so very wicked? Or just greedy...?

8- one of the kingsguard did just conveniently bite it- Aerys Oakheart... supposedly protecting Myrcella. Surely word will reach KL in time for a new appointment?

13- I was under the impression that there are two or three books yet to come in this series. Even if Dance is set in the same time period... I suppose the next book/s could start after a few more years have passed?

14- I think the sword in Brienne's care might prove to be more powerful than we think. It was made from Ned's ICE and refused to turn Lannister colors, IIRC. I wonder if in the right hands, it may come to life? (I'm hedging bets on Jon being the wielder)

15- Margaery's maidenhead: I really do think she lost in horseback riding. We all know that her first husband was homosexual. The only person claiming any proof that Renly and Margaery did the deed was Taena Merryweather, whom I strongly believe was setting Cersei up for a big fall. I just don't think Margaery is that stupid... esp. the whole "moontea" thing. I think Margaery and her clan and followers are doing a big ol' conspiracy against the Lannisters.

[hammer14]

Cat I love your ideas about catlyns emotional state at time of death. her whole existence is revenge for the death of her children but only one has died. I wonder will her undeath end when she finds out most of her children our alive?

little finger is just greedy and i do believe his real weakness is the tully women. even though he killed lysa he still had sansa and hes always felt catlyn was his true love.

[newleaf]

3- regarding Catlyn... I wonder if the emotions you have at the time of death are the ones you carry into an "undead" state? I wonder if when she discovers most of her children actually live (assuming she does), if it is possible for her to change in any way?

If that were the case, then she'd probably be eternally grieving the loss of her children. I think she is just extremely bitter and hateful as a result of losing all of her children... which obviously accounts for the abundance of nooses that seem to have found their way around Frey necks.

Anyone get the vibe that Thoros wasn't too happy with her resurrection after being dead so long? She seems full of hate (understandably so).

Yes. I believe the loss of Beric would've hurt him (they seemed to be good friends), but he also seemed disgusted at what the brotherhood had become.

14- I think the sword in Brienne's care might prove to be more powerful than we think. It was made from Ned's ICE and refused to turn Lannister colors, IIRC. I wonder if in the right hands, it may come to life? (I'm hedging bets on Jon being the wielder)

It's black rippled with crimson. I can't remember if it "refused" to turn into Lannister colours, but I do remember that they (the Lannisters) were impressed with the results. I don't think Jon will wield Oathkeeper. He already has valyrian steel and I think it will become the new Stark sword at some point (it seems perfectly suited to the role with it's wolf head pommel).

I'm surprised no one has been talking about Marwyn's revelations concerning the Maesters. I always assumed that magic and dragons just sort of died out in Westeros, but Marwyn seems to blame the "Grey Sheep" for the lack of dragons (and presumably magic too). It makes me wonder if they're going to be a threat to Dany and her children when she finally decides to make her way to Westeros.

[Memnoch]

He's apparently spoken a bit about this on his recent signing tour. I read at Westeros.org that he says he has 500 pages of aDwD done, and believes he can wrap up those storylines in 500 more. He says he will be able this time to write a few hundred pages more than that for the final book without it becoming too large - so, if he does finish the other storylines within 1000 pages, he's going to use the last few hundred to go back to the cliffhangers in aFfC.

This is fantastic then. Though I wouldn't complain if he wrote a 1500-page book.

[Memnoch]

Thanks for the feeback Cat and others (with a small "o"). I'd forgotten that Arys Oakheart had died. I'm ALMOST certain now that Gregor Clegane will be named to the Kingsguard to defend Cersei. How low has the Kingsguard sunk to eh, to have a murderer and rapist like the Mountain wearing a white cloak.

Speaking of which, I was a bit confused about the ending to Jaime's POV, where he threw Cersei's letter into the fire. Does this mean he isn't going back to save her? It was a bit ambiguious (in true GRRM style).

As for Cat, it's hard to say. Beric died six times, but he still seemed to be the honourable knight he was. He wasn't driven by revenge or anything. Still, being raised from the dead surely must have some effect on a person. The wights raised by the others are mindless zombies, while those given the kiss of life, while they have the power of speech and independent thought, seem to be shells of themselves.

[Koson]

Two comments:
- the fact that Stannis has Targaryen blood through his grandmother is not a secret, it's just that most peple don't remember it / know about it - after all, it's happened three generations ago;
- I'd say the two swords created out of Ice are meant for the Stark children (it's fitting), more precisely for Rickon (Oathkeeper) and Arya (the one given to Joffrey, resembling a bravo’s blade - it's her kind of weapon). Bran's not a fighter, and Jon already has Longclaw; besides it's not likely he'll ever bear the name Stark.

I'm pretty sure Jaime won't go back to try to save Cersei, this is a perfect opportunity to have her removed from power and thus free Tommen from her influence, something he realized must be done, and rather sooner than later.

[Smoove]

From...http://www.towerofthehand.com/books/103/040.html

He asks Thoros how many times he has been brought back by the Lord of Light, and Thoros answers six, though each time is harder than the last, and Thoros does not think he can do it many more times. Gregor has killed him three times, including with a dirk in the eye, Ser Burton smashed his skull, and Ser Amory hanged him. He no longer remembers where his castle is located, to whom he is betrothed,1 whom knighted him, his favorite foods, or many other basic things. The first time he came back to life, Thoros was giving him his last rights according to the faith of the Lord of Light and giving him the last kiss, breathing fire down his throat. It is a standard ritual, but never before has it brought a man back from the dead.

The first time Thoros brought Dondarion back, he did it by accident. This tells me that Dondarion was brought back because he had a greater purpose. AKA it was not his time to die. He was sent to the Riverlands to bring the Mountain to justice and until that happened he was going to live.

Later Thoros didn't want to resurect Catlyn when they found her, but Beric was willing to sacrifice himself to bring her back. This could be because at this point, I think, the Gregor was captured and had confessed his crimes so he was in the process of facing his justice. With his purpose fulfilled (even if not by his own hand), i belive that Beric knew his time was over and that Catlyn had to be the one to continue. Catlyns purpose being revenge.

Then again I could be reading too much into it.

[newleaf]

Speaking of which, I was a bit confused about the ending to Jaime's POV, where he threw Cersei's letter into the fire. Does this mean he isn't going back to save her? It was a bit ambiguious (in true GRRM style).

Jaime didn't seem too happy after finding out the truth of Tyrion's words. There's also the way she was treating him of late. And then calling him back when she has a need for him again? I think the letter was just icing on the cake. His bitter reaction says it all... he isn't going to her rescue IMO.

The first time Thoros brought Dondarion back, he did it by accident. This tells me that Dondarion was brought back because he had a greater purpose. AKA it was not his time to die. He was sent to the Riverlands to bring the Mountain to justice and until that happened he was going to live.

I thought it was due to Dany's dragons (much like they affected the street performer that was climbing his ladder of fire).

[Zeratul]

Does anyone know if Brienne's storyline will be continued and/or resolved in the next book? It would really suck if we are left wondering for 3-4 years whether she died or not, and what she said in the end.

I also don't think Jaime would go back to help Cercei, he's had enough of her. Plus it would be pointless, he's still nowhere near good enough fighter with his left arm to win a trial by combat.

[newleaf]

Who will fight against? It would be interesting if Jaime returned to King's Landing and had to face off against Lancel or something.

[Cat Snow]

I think Jamie will return to try and help his sis. I think he burned the letter because it might implicate to their relationship "I love you, I love you, I love you..."

It's not like she has just suddenly become a beyotch or something....but only that he now sees her manipulation of him, and her lack of physical loyalty. She hasn't changed since as far back as we've been informed... HE HAS. And I think he knows this, too.
Yet none of it changes the fact that she is his first, and only love & lover. He knows not how to love another woman- it'd be like marrying the first kid you had a crush on in kindergarten- only a lot creepier

I doubt seriously that he will go back to duel, though. His strength now must lie in his wit, will, and wisdom.

Besides, Qyburn has Cersei's champion almost fully constructed... (one...more...ear...and........IT'S ALIVE!)

[Koson]

It's not like she has just suddenly become a beyotch or something....but only that he now sees her manipulation of him, and her lack of physical loyalty. She hasn't changed since as far back as we've been informed... HE HAS. And I think he knows this, too.
Yet none of it changes the fact that she is his first, and only love & lover. He knows not how to love another woman- it'd be like marrying the first kid you had a crush on in kindergarten- only a lot creepier

Yes, he realizes now what a wonderful sister/queen/lover Cersei is and has been. But it was also implied if not told outright that he does not think her fit to rule and be Tommen's regent, and this would be a perfect solution as it both removes her and leaves him free of blame for whatever happens to her. Why interfere?
As for love, well, he hasn't been all that faithfull either (if Pia is an example ) although it doesn't compare with Cersei's "indiscretions". And I think he might be in love with Brienne, even if not aware of it .

Besides, Qyburn has Cersei's champion almost fully constructed... (one...more...ear...and........IT'S ALIVE!)

True, but since she is the queen, it must be a knight of the Kingsguard who fights for her. And I doubt Gregor (earless or not , alive or not) would get a white cloack just for this.

I'm surprised no one has been talking about Marwyn's revelations concerning the Maesters. I always assumed that magic and dragons just sort of died out in Westeros, but Marwyn seems to blame the "Grey Sheep" for the lack of dragons (and presumably magic too). It makes me wonder if they're going to be a threat to Dany and her children when she finally decides to make her way to Westeros.

It was said that the dragons declined and died out because they were stunted in their growth / deprived of freedom & being kept captive/indoors all the time. However this would only apply to Westeros, and dragons should have lived elsewhere too due to the relative abundence of dragon eggs. So a slight contradiction here.
The "Grey Sheep" were adverse to magic and all things beyond control, so it makes sense for them to work towards the dragons' demise. There might be a conflict with Dany prefigured, but if Marwyn reaches her I figure she'll get ample warning and be ready for them.

[newleaf]

It's not like she has just suddenly become a beyotch or something....but only that he now sees her manipulation of him, and her lack of physical loyalty. She hasn't changed since as far back as we've been informed... HE HAS. And I think he knows this, too.

Well, she has always been a bitch... but not towards Jaime.
She has changed the way she acts towards Jaime as a direct result of his change in personality. Need I quote all the vicious insults she threw his way throughout AFfC? Or you could just look at the fact that she sent him off to Riverrun because he was a nuisance and then calls him back when she gets herself in trouble.

[hammer14]

I dont think jaime will help his sister. he has written her off,after he burned the letter he could of got up right then and gone to the high septon or gotten some men and taken cersei back by force from the septon. he did nothing. so i think Catsnow has it backards what if someone you loved since kindergarten "only creepier" betrays you that love changes to either blinding hate or in jaimes case a knawing jeoluosy eating away at him. so i dont think he going to help her. i hope her trial is atrial of seven like in the hedge knight know that would be a good scene. I dont think briennes pov is done i think she has traded podricks life for jaimes or an attempt on jaimes life( ironic that jaime gives her a sword named oathkeeper then she has to swear to kill him on it).

[Memnoch]

Well, she has always been a bitch... but not towards Jaime.
She has changed the way she acts towards Jaime as a direct result of his change in personality. Need I quote all the vicious insults she threw his way throughout AFfC? Or you could just look at the fact that she sent him off to Riverrun because he was a nuisance and then calls him back when she gets herself in trouble.

If you put this in context though, Jaime was in love with Cersei for 30-odd years. He was willing to kill Robert for her if she wanted. He threw Bran out of a window for her. Obviously the two of them don't see eye to eye now because you can tell Jaime's personality has changed as a result of his being put in prison, spending time with Brienne and losing his hand, but geez Brienne would have to be a HUGE influence to change Jaime's personality that much to the point where he won't do anything about her. Even after knowing about her sleeping around he was still willing to marry her. I'm struggling to reconcile myself to the fact that after being such a huge part of his life (for better or worse) that he can just cut ties like that in the space of a few short months. In RL, how hard is it to get over a longterm relationship that's a few years long? Let alone 20-odd or whatever the length of Jaime and Cersei's one.

I'm sure he'll do something. I doubt he'll nominate himself as champion, but I would find it very hard to believe he wouldn't do something. I thought Jaime was a right rotten bloke after the first couple of books. It was only when we got his POV that he started to change to the point where he's actually become honourable. This is the bloke who the whole realm said had "sh*t for honour" (as GRRM so eloquently puts it).