March 2nd, 2006, 04:44 PM
Okay, great. I just finished, loved the series, but was not quite sure what to think about the last 100 pages. I think I will need a re-read to gather my thoughts and then post again with a hopefully stronger opinion.
I specifically logged on now to see what you all had to say, as I thought I might have missed something obvious (been reading in short stints on tubes and buses).
I perceived a link between Kellhus and the No-God; and that Moenghus may have pre-planned the journey of Cnuir to keep a check of Kellhus (not sure of the extent of that...). Maithanet's role was kicking me through the whole series, but I never thought that he was Moengus as it seemed too obvious for Bakker.
No physical battles between Cnauir and Conphas (thought that may be on he cards heh) but their debates were very eye gluing. Actually, I did wonder if they would both tag-team Kellhus.
It's funny, I am not missing the series yet (as i do with those that i love) as everything is still rattling around in my mind.
Great series - now off to start Eriksons Bonehunters (great timing)
Last edited by Dystran Hart; March 12th, 2006 at 08:46 AM.
March 3rd, 2006, 05:04 PM
Is it just or did Cnauir might have raped Conphas in the one diner scene where he just "blacks out" and wakes up with blood. I thought it was just a beating, but...
March 3rd, 2006, 07:37 PM
Uh, you're thinking wishfully dude. My gratitude to Scott for time lapsing that one cuz I really can't think of any other reason you'd be washing blood and feces off of your piece in the morning.
March 4th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Well, this was one of the chapter's I read through quickly, so I didn't pick up much from it.
Originally Posted by saintjon
March 5th, 2006, 06:32 AM
That's totally understandable if you were reading really fast I guess.
March 6th, 2006, 09:07 AM
>> What the hell was the "sealing" and "void" about anyway?
Human souls are gateways to the Outside ( "void" ), giving the agents of the Outside ( what they perceive as "gods" ) access and jurisdiction to Eärwa, so that when they die they will be judged and perhaps damned.
Consider that Eärwa has a protective sheet around it, the souls are like tiny pin-pricks on said sheet and when there are a huge number of little holes they essentially make one big hole. So, killing off people reduces the amount of holes in the sheet and makes Eärwa less suspectible to the Outside. Note though, that not everyone has to be killed off, "just" lots and lots.
This is what the Consult is trying to do. As to Möenghus being against the Consult, he was. Kellhus, however, foresaw that eventually Möenghus would side with the Consult because "he was still Dûnyain". The Outside is a threat to their principle Logos, to their "darkness that comes before", and as such is an influence that should be eliminated.
As for what the Outside is, I don't think it's set in stone. You could think it's space and that godlike creatures - or even gods - reside there or you could think of it as an metaphysical void where unfathomable beings exist.
>> how that would save the soulless really
They aren't trying to redeem themselves exactly. They just want to ensure that they won't be damned after they die. Whether that is because doing what they like is a sure way to damnation or that they just don't like the concept of some entity judging and damning you is unknown. Both, probably.
Last edited by Rooster; March 6th, 2006 at 09:17 AM.
March 16th, 2006, 11:15 AM
I finished it the other day. Much to think on. One thing I was confused about was Maithenet. I was under the impression he was the consult. Then Moenghis mentioned he was Kelhus' half brother...And I thought, What? I don't get it, he can't be both...can he? Or did I misread it? I think I am going to have to re read the whole series again and concentrate harder. I was also pretty astounded that the book ended where it did. It seemed that Drusas was overdue a showdown with Kelhus and I was disappointed that none was forthcoming. Is there another book due? I thought this was a trilogy and then read somewhere here that there was 'The Aspect Emperor' to look forward to. Would this be the next in the series?
I think I shall have to be a bit clearer headed before I can write more on the philosophy side of the series. And my thoughts on Esmenet. I appreciated her position a lot more in this particular story. It seemed to elaborate on her decision to follow Kelhus which had never struck true in TWP, but seemed to make more sense here. But her possession sequence.....I don't know. I really don't understand why she loved Kelhus, and that made it even more of a question for me. I think perhaps that his manipulations made her love herself and by extention, him too... I definitely need more time to think on it! I love a good book that makes you frown and puzzle and think.
March 18th, 2006, 06:31 AM
I think Maithanet, at Moenghus' behest, let the Consult infiltrate the church, fully aware that they were there doing their thing but not stopping them, all to sucker them on down the Shimeh where Moenghus could have his way with them on "conditioned ground".
PoN is a trilogy, Aspect-Emperor is supposed to be a continuation of the story (picks up some 20 years later or so I'm told, Cnaiur won't be much of a Consult agent by then unless the Inchoroi hook him up with agelessness).
Anyways, I think Scott said originally it was supposed to be a trilogy about the Second Apocalypse, Prince of Nothing being the first book, Aspect-Emperor the second and then a third after that. Prince of Nothing became it's own trilogy so maybe the other two books will as well. I certainly wouldn't complain .
March 20th, 2006, 10:49 AM
I did wonder if that was what happened. It seemed to me that the risk of madness would be magnified in Maithenet though, so I dismissed that idea. If Kelhus came to meet his father on conditioned ground and reacted how he did, then what would Maithenet be like? Maithenet would be just as manipulated/ing by the outside world as Kelhus, but with the added input of the Consult.
Originally Posted by saintjon
I see. Thanks Saint Jon. I'm looking forward to the next installment, but I definitely need to re read what has already passed.
Originally Posted by saintjon
March 23rd, 2006, 06:39 PM
I think Maithanet was never so far from the direct influence of Moenghus that the latter would be concerned about him going loopy though. We know Maithanet wasn't conditioned as full Dunyain but that's not to say Moenghus wouldn't have thoroughly indoctrinated him before sending him out into the world (giving him the dunyain skills of facial discernment so he could be aware of skin-spies but not the dunyain worldview that pretty much dissassembles everything and makes someone hard to control).
Scott said once that Kellhus is struggling to maintain meaninglessness in a meaningful world and I think he's losing that struggle. That isn't to say that I think he's gone mad. He wasn't the only one who saw haloes around his hands, so maybe they're really there. I think Akka was right that his inability to heal rules him out as a prophet but as a harbinger? I think being the prophecied harbinger certainly could mean you're going to have cosmic freakiness like that going on around you.
Everything about that last paragraph circles the central fact of how brilliant that scene with Moenghus really was. I wonder how he would have reacted if he could have seen Kellhus' hands. Would he have seen the haloes too and had another Dunyain wall toppled in his mind or would he have seen nothing at all and allowed us to dismiss it as a group hallucination of some kind?
March 23rd, 2006, 09:26 PM
I love the fact that the seemingly first appearance of the golden haloes (as far as I know) compares Kellhus to Ineri Senjus (halfway through Warrior-Prophet, when Kellhus, Akka, and either Serwe or Esement all in a ruined chapel/temple; a detail Scott made a point of was Senjus' haloed hands).
April 9th, 2006, 07:56 AM
just finished it tonight, about an hour ago..wow.
one thing that struck me was how incredibly invincible kellhus is now. you know, with the whole two inutterals and all that. space itself yields to him now. that, and the fact that he physically resembled the no-god from akka's dreams seems to foreshadow some disturbing stuff. which is to say, if kellhus is so powerful now, there is no way the consult could succeed. from which you could perhaps infer that he is the no-god. it seems the second apocalypse can only happen if he wills it. and if he doesn't will it, that would make "Aspect-Emperor" a little boring wouldn't it?
i loved the presence of sorcery in TTT, and how it was finally explained with a little more clarity. better than the whole "look at me i can throw fireballs from my hands" crap that comes out of so much fantasy. sorcery is cool again!
April 12th, 2006, 09:26 PM
just finished TTT not 30mins ago.
firstly: AKKA KICKS @$$!!!!!
ok, so he gets to be with the one person with a sliver of hope that he can be with (esmi). then she thought him dead, and beds your "harbinger." he comes back, thinking everything would be the same, but it's not. he decided that the world is bigger than himself, so he sacrifices himself (AGAIN)
but in the end, he went his own way. renounced all he is and renounced kellhus, even esmi, walks alone. he even thinks himself alone, a perfect man.
so, is this selfishness? IMO, it's not. he did what's right for him.
and after all that happened to him, i think he deserves some happiness. sadly, the ending is the closest he'll get to happiness, as i can see it...
April 12th, 2006, 10:10 PM
^^^is it selfsihness? my wordy yes! the height of selfishness...that doesn't mean it was wrong though.
April 13th, 2006, 08:58 PM
i guess i just have too much pity for akka.
he deserves happiness, IMO. and, sadly, the one person he can get it from will almost certainly never go back to him.
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