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  1. #46
    Uh, Moderator
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    I finished this recently. Really interesting end to the series. It was always on the cards that Kellhus would lead the Holy War to victory, hence enabling him to unite the known world fgor the upcoming apocalypse. What was interesting was his movement away from the Dunyain - as someone said earlier, he started to believe his own press after the events in the WP where he prophesised the result of the battle and then got hung up on the circumfix. The haloes are probably evidence that he's right in believing it too.

    You could tell as soon as Akka started descrbing the Gnosis to him that he was going to do something funky, I didn't think it was going to be teleporation though. I wonder what other combinations he can come up with.

    Stylistically, I didn't like how Scott changed to the much smaller character focuses in the end and did the rotation of POV. I understand it's a good technique for maintaining interest, but I don't think it helped for the Kellhus/Moenghus confrontation - I would've rather read that in one whole block.

    Question: When Esmenet was possessed, how did Kellhus already know to protect Achamian?

  2. #47
    ^^

    from what I understood,Kellhus worked out (using his probability technique) that since the consult wouldn't want to kill him until they undertood/controlled him. He realized that Akka was their only other threat as he can teach kellhus the gnosis.

  3. #48
    El-Prawno
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    Here's my take on the ending of the story...

    Akka has IMO, become the true hero of the story. Which is totally fine by me, as he's my favourite character. I think he becomes the protaganist of the next series.

    Kelhus is an extremely dislikable person. He has become the Aspect-Emperor, though his goals are still unknown.

    Esmenet- The romanticist in me wants Esmenet and Akka to come back. Unlikely though.

    Think about this- The next story is set 20 years later, just when Kellhus' child will reach adulthood. Maybe a gigantic conflict between child and No-God?
    I'm assuming the Consult require the next 20 years to get their plans back on track.

    The strangest and therefore best thing about this book is that I have zero idea between the motivation of the actions of just about everyone.
    No God, Consult, Kellhus, Akka, Esmi etc.

    Also, can anyone explain what the Mark of Pushke is? I read the definitions at the end, and I'm still confused.

    Thanks for reading my ramble.

  4. #49
    I like to rock the party Corporal Blues's Avatar
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    Just finished this book late last night...talk about a wild friday evening! I really liked the short POV changes...it really made the pace pick up, and I found myself physically unable to put the book down.

    The ending was pretty darn good. However, I thouhgt the showdown between Kellhus and Moenghus was a bit of a bore...I guess I was expecting a super powered physical showdown, rather then a mental ping pong battle...I actually thought a lot of their discussion read more like a summary of what we already knew happened. Felt like I was reading the summary of a philosophy term paper rather than a book.

    The battle for Shimeh was OK, but not great, because when Earls and Dukes and Lords and what-have-yous died, I didn't care because I had such a hard time remembering which duke of what or earl of where was who and even which side they were on. The names were kinda confusing I guess.

    Plus, for me at least, I didn't really care about any of the characters... And I didn't really care who "won". I guess the "good guys" (Inrithi) won, and Kellhus is Emperor, and the Consult now needs to regroup and all, and according to things I've heard about The Aspect Emperor, the second apocalypse comes in about 20 years, but I kinda dont give a rats ass, because the characters are so unlikeable. Maybe I'm just upset because there's no clear cut good guy who you want to have a happy and great life, and you dont want him to ever die, but for me, all the characters are unlikeable people who are pretty selfish and very ugly on the inside. That being said, Bakker did set it up for Achamian to possibly step into that role in the next series...

    I know I've griped about some things I found negative, but I still thought the series as a whole was quite good. Totally refreshing and new in very good ways. Although I didn't find any of the characters likeable, I still thouhgt they were really good characters. Kellhus seems totally unique as a fantasy character to me, and Akka is a good twist on the old wizard stereotype. Cnaiur was maybe my favorite, his scenes were a breath of fresh air for me, I was glad he got some revenge.

    Anyway, I've said more then enough, so thats all for now.

  5. #50
    It never entered my mind algernoninc's Avatar
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    finished last night with a big "wow" - the final battle for Shimeh was way better set up than Erikson's attempts : magic, tactics, individual duels, multiple twists of fate with victory swinging each way several times. I was a little bothered by the aboundance of similar names being killed in fast succession, nut at least i have the fat glossary at the end.
    Akka and Esmi were my favorites from the first volume, and their story of missteps, jealousy and misunderstandings rings truer to me than any "they lived happily everafter" routine. I hope they will get back together sometime.
    Kellhus i rejected as a favorite character early in the series : Bakker mentions somewhere that people without doubts make good inquisitors, or something like that. I don't really root for overpowered geeks who can smash mountains with a wave of their fingers [Rand al'Thor] or who look upon people as children or ants in need of a strong hand to guide them.

    I have a lot to chew on, but i have a few points i would like to ask about:
    - the incident of the murder of the Ikurey emperor by his mother: was she a skin spy? it wasn't clear to me
    - why was Maithanet such a shadow character in the series? he called the crusade forward, yet he remains mostly absent with only 3 mentions in the whole volume.
    - what was that thing about magical skin spies? if the Consult has been able to infiltrate the Mandate school at the highest level, don't it mean they know and can use the Gnosis [see the chapter where Maithanet strangles one of the Mandate leaders]

  6. #51
    Registered User Murrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by algernoninc View Post
    - the incident of the murder of the Ikurey emperor by his mother: was she a skin spy? it wasn't clear to me
    Yes, it was a skin-spy. Revealed when he found she had male genitals (skin-spies are always male, even when they impersonate women).

    - what was that thing about magical skin spies? if the Consult has been able to infiltrate the Mandate school at the highest level, don't it mean they know and can use the Gnosis [see the chapter where Maithanet strangles one of the Mandate leaders]
    It was explained (by Maithanet, I think) in that scene: that one spy was an anomaly the Consult had never been able to reproduce--a skin-spy with a soul, and the ability to use magic.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Daybreak View Post
    Which leads me to my next question, which nags at me to no end: Why didn't anyone really try to help Xinemus, instead of just pitying him? Did they prefer to use him as their penance, and the worse he got, the "better" they felt? I understand that for a warrior to loose his eyesight would be a devastating blow, but are the caste-systems so rigid that neither he nor anyone else could conceive of him making a life outside of the military? Akka tells Esmi that the Compulsion by the Scarlet Spires made him say and act out of character. Fine. Couldn't anything be done to reverse it? Kellhus can't heal, but isn't there anything in the Gnosis that could help somehow, without further robbing Zin of his identity? Barring that, couldn't Kellhus hypnotize him like he did with Akka? The whole post-Sareots episode with Zin bothered me, like it didn't have to happen that way. But maybe that's because I'm looking at it as someone from the "real world" and I didn't want it to happen that way. If I lived in the Three Seas, perhaps it would have seemed perfectly natural to me?
    This is a problem for me too. Setting aside any use of the Gnosis to heal Xinemus physically, Kelhus could have simply talked to him for an hour or so and healed his mind. Time after time he's shown his ability to master normal humans, and make them feel or think whatever he chooses. It would be relatively simple for him to help Xin bear the loss of his eyes, get him off the madness/alcoholism track and into a functional state.
    Of course, he doesn't truly feel anything for Xin, but even so it made more sense to have him alive (and functional) rather than dead. It would have helped morale, and might even have convinced Akka to stay with him. That aside, Xin could still have been useful as an advisor.

  8. #53

    just finished...

    OK, I just finished all three books in the last three weeks, and I am glad to find that lot of folks had the same questions/problems/feelings that I did!

    First, I was glad to read that others, by the third book, hated Kellhus as much as I did! And that was a very odd feeling as 99.9% of fanstasy books have a "good" and "sympathetic" main character. It was like Scott/Kellhus deceived us, but at the end, we "saw" like Akka and Cnauir.

    That said...

    1. Yes, what happened to Cnaiur (pardon my spelling)? And maybe I am really dense, but what was Serwe "proof" of? That he wasn't really homosexual? And all three books, I wondered if Moenghus and Cnaiur really did have sex, or did the Utemot just think they did? It appears at the end of TTT that they actually had...

    2. I went between understanding Esmi and loathing her. I liked Esmi the whore better as she was honest with herself and those around her, and seemed to acutally understand herself better. I can see how she would choose to stay with the power and luxury that surrounds Kellhus, instead of the uncertainty that surrounded Akka. On the other hand, she loves Akka, but tortures him at the same time.

    3. Who is Maithenet? I too, thought for awhile that Maithenet was Moengus when they talked about his blue eyes. Then I wondered, could be the child of Moeghus and Cnaiur's mother? I know he was supposedly thrown in a fire while the mother was killed, but Maithenet was described as black hair with blue eyes - just like the Utemot.

    4. I see these posts started over a year ago and there was talk of the next book. Any idea when it comes out?

  9. #54

    one more thing...

    Did it bother anyone else that the infant Moenghus was apparently left alone (as his wet nurse was dead) with one guard in the middle of a battle field?

  10. #55
    Filthy Assistants! Moderator kater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shell View Post

    3. Who is Maithenet? I too, thought for awhile that Maithenet was Moengus when they talked about his blue eyes. Then I wondered, could be the child of Moeghus and Cnaiur's mother? I know he was supposedly thrown in a fire while the mother was killed, but Maithenet was described as black hair with blue eyes - just like the Utemot.

    4. I see these posts started over a year ago and there was talk of the next book. Any idea when it comes out?
    3. - Moenghus' son from a 'normal' woman (I think, it's been a while since I read TTT) He is half-dunyain and whilst trained by Moenghus doesn't have all the Dunyain abilities. I think there's a Scylvendi bastard out there as well, though I'm not very sure on this point.

    4. Aspect-Emperor, comes out the middle of next year and is set roughly twenty years after TTT. There's a very good forum for all things Bakker here: http://forum.three-seas.com/
    Last edited by kater; September 15th, 2007 at 07:55 PM.

  11. #56
    Kater,

    Thank you for the link. Now I can waste another three hours...

  12. #57
    Filthy Assistants! Moderator kater's Avatar
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    I know, I'd avoided it for a while but when you mentioned Maithanet I went to have a look and spent an hour there

  13. #58
    Registered User Leiali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shell View Post
    2. I went between understanding Esmi and loathing her. I liked Esmi the whore better as she was honest with herself and those around her, and seemed to acutally understand herself better. I can see how she would choose to stay with the power and luxury that surrounds Kellhus, instead of the uncertainty that surrounded Akka. On the other hand, she loves Akka, but tortures him at the same time.
    Hi Shell
    Interesting points, but I've only got time and to be honest the recollection to respond to the Esmenet section of your musings. I harangued Scott over where he was taking her character, I had a real attachment to her (and Akka), but I must say she left me cold during the Thousandfold thought. My conclusion was that Esme was manipulated to such an extent that she wasn't herself anymore, but the woman Kelhus needed her to be, and not always by choice. It made me think of Mary Magadalene for obvious reasons, and how she has been interpreted over the past couple of thousand years .

    In addition to this, to my mind, despite all the atrocious things they did, experienced, went through etc, the only character who almost maintained their integrity if not their sanity, was Achamian.

    but really, who knows? other than Scott of course. I just hope that Drusas Achamian gets an opportunity to kick some serious Anasurimbur Kelhus butt. That is all I really want. How he manages to do that in the Aspect Emperor however is another matter, and I doubt it will happen. Unless it is a third generation thing?

  14. #59
    Hi Leiali,

    I went on in some length on the other web-site about the whole Esmi/Akka thing...and spent three days going over some *very* old threads. I did find an interesting quote from Scott that Esmi was "enslaved by liberation". There were lots of arguments as to whether Kellhus actually loves Esmi, but general consensus is that he at least has some affection for her - which makes the romantic in me feel a little better...I think.

    On one hand, who can blame her? To go from a whore to Consort? And women throughout the ages have been used only to breed children. Maybe it was that last little tryst during the battle, at that point you knew she wasn't Kellhus' completely...and that may be what really bothers me yet.

    At any rate, in AE, I hope Akka shows up slimmer, still has a full head of hair with his beautiful trophy/witch/genius wife and three handsome, strapping sons, while Esmi has become all saggy from bearing Kellhus' 10 children...

  15. #60
    Just finished readin t series. Good, but needs to be more taught. Less idle romances, more world building.

    Absolutely loved the Nansur Emperor character, pity he had to die. Dunyain concept was new but the foes/evil come off kinda novice, like they are still learning to play evil. Coz logically speaking, if the Dynyain are 2000 years old, the Consult are older still.. See my point..
    Last edited by nomagic; June 3rd, 2010 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Written in haste..

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