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  1. #16
    Loveable Rogue Moderator juzzza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket Sheep
    That's a bit ambitious!
    Expectations sure would be dull, if they were realistic!

  2. #17
    I AM too a mod! Moderator Rocket Sheep's Avatar
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    I thought publishers thought we were just the annoying extras that clutter up the christmas party... well that's what they told me after a few drinks. Have you found some that still like authors? Are they brand new?

    I went looking for roberteggleton's "my satirical essay" presuming it would be linked from his profile, but it's not. As a writer who teaches satire and doesn't sell much writing, satire about selling writing seems appealing, and I've seen really annoying writers do really well and their only talent seems to be the ability to make people give in.

    Where can I find this mysterious document of which you speak, roberteggleton?

  3. #18
    Shovelly Joe Moderator Jacquin's Avatar
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    I assume this is the one.

    J

  4. #19
    bmalone.blogspot.com BrianC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacquin
    I assume this is the one.

    J
    Hmm, not sure that I can detect the satire there. But look, the bottom line--practically speaking--is that there are ways to self-promote one's work without pissing other people off. It's a pretty sure bet that if your first post on a site is nothing more than a banner ad linking back to your own website, especially where said website exists by selling ad space, then you're going get deleted. It's another safe bet that if you go to an author's site--which exists to promote her own work--and start going on about your stuff, that the website owner is going to ask you not to come back.

    The issue of the first amendment is a strawman. It has no application to a forum posting on a private website, Lacy Dawn's opinion notwithstanding.
    Last edited by BrianC; August 17th, 2006 at 11:37 AM.

  5. #20
    Edited for submission Holbrook's Avatar
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    Very good comments, is it possible for the mods to split the thread, removing the sections on the latest topic and placing them in a new thread???

  6. #21

    Thank you Jacquin

    for posting the link. I was afraid to do so. Would a link to the publishing house be okay as part of my profile?

  7. #22
    Shovelly Joe Moderator Jacquin's Avatar
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    Sure thing, you can link to wherever you want in your profile.

    J

  8. #23
    I AM too a mod! Moderator Rocket Sheep's Avatar
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    Great stuff Sidmyster, and Hols, I'm sure Juzza or Kat will move the off topic posts to a different thread soon. Good idea.

    Brian C, it IS satire and quite nice, analogically speaking, and I'm pretty sure roberteggleton didn't write it in answer to the questions raised in this thread because, as we know, this site is in Norway.

    America is the only country where people trot out amendments to ruin arguments (if anyone does know any Norwegian amendments to law, then I'd be impressed).

    So it was disappointing to me as a non-american to find an amendment flung into a satire article that should've been about global concerns. That teamed with the Sacramento example, and constant references to God made me feel it was completely UScentric and had no value to me. Also it was too long for online reading and that lessened its impact considerably... so I skimmed it and failed to be enlightened or convinced of anything altho I was mildly entertained for the first few paragraphs. Does that make me a mean cybergod or just not the intented audience?
    Last edited by Rocket Sheep; August 17th, 2006 at 10:41 PM.

  9. #24
    Just Another Philistine Hereford Eye's Avatar
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    Concur with BrianC.

    BTW, I'm in favor of cybergods, the more the merrier. Fits right in with the First Law of the Universe * which states that you should know the rules so you can explain why you're breaking them.






    * It used to be my first law but the universe seems to have absconded with it.

  10. #25
    bmalone.blogspot.com BrianC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket Sheep
    Brian C, it IS satire and quite nice, analogically speaking, and I'm pretty sure roberteggleton didn't write it in answer to the questions raised in this thread because, as we know, this site is in Norway.

    America is the only country where people trot out amendments to ruin arguments (if anyone does know any Norwegian amendments to law, then I'd be impressed).

    So it was disappointing to me as a non-american to find an amendment flung into a satire article that should've been about global concerns. That teamed with the Sacramento example, and constant references to God made me feel it was completely UScentric and had no value to me. Also it was too long for online reading and that lessened its impact considerably... so I skimmed it and failed to be enlightened or convinced of anything altho I was mildly entertained for the first few paragraphs. Does that make me a mean cybergod or just not the intented audience?
    Agreed. It's not like United States citizens do or should enjoy any special privileges on the internet, as if I must be allowed to say whatever I want on these boards but you poor antipodeans (antipodites?) had better watch out .

  11. #26
    aka. Stephen B5 Jones MrBF1V3's Avatar
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    roberteggleton, I hope you understand the comment I made earlier was not intended as a jab. It seemed you were missing a point, this is, so to speak, someone else's living room. Being such, they get to make the rules. If the rules are too constrictive or harsh, we all go somewhere else.

    Juzzza's point is well made, and I agree, his post should be suggested, if not required reading. There are ways to self-promote in the forum which are not against the rules. There is an on-line etiquette, and the results of ingnoring those rules is more than being shunned by a site, individuals will turn away as well.

    I can remember one or two threads which started with "Check out my new website." or "I want to start a discussion on my new book" at least for me, those things don't work well. I tend to move on.

    Just because I'm curious, Jacquin, you mentioned paying for advertising space. Who would one contact in order to do that? At the moment I have no need to know, but things can change. And it might be nice for members of this forum to know.

    Also, I know that writersblock.com has a thread specifically for self-promotion. I don't know how well it works, but when I was there I did browse through it.

    B5

  12. #27
    how about a discount for people who have been with the site for a while and want to advertise?

  13. #28
    Administrator Administrator Hobbit's Avatar
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    LOL. Nice try, Sid.

    you mentioned paying for advertising space. Who would one contact in order to do that? At the moment I have no need to know, but things can change. And it might be nice for members of this forum to know.
    If you are seriously interested, then Daigoro, the owner of the site, is your man. Feel free to send him a Private Message (PM) if you want more details.

    Hobbit
    Mark

  14. #29

    the majority of readers want to discover new authors.

    Thanks juzzza for the research.

    Of course, the status quo wants to maintain Batman rewrites.

  15. #30
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Well, I didn't bother to read Robert's essay because I already know he suffers from a common ailment among new authors -- a total lack of knowledge of the market in which he's trying to operate and a belief that the only thing happening on the Web is free advertising. But he's trying to learn, so we will honor that.

    It is very tempting to lump all arts industries in together and to assume that they all operate in the same manner, that movies, records, fine arts, books, etc. are all sold the same and bought the same. Tempting, but incorrect, especially when it comes to the antiquated, democratic, loopy, frustratingly uncontrollable, cash poor, totally lacking in market research (or at least till Juzz came along,) because it doesn't do much good, decidedly odd industry of written fiction publishing. The written fiction market is marketing-resistent and the main way written fiction is sold is through word of mouth -- one person reads something and tells a pal.

    Perhaps nowhere is this more the case than in sff, where the fan community -- the core audience willing to try new authors and regularly buy sff -- were used to regular interaction with each other and with authors long before the arrival of the Internet. So they do tend, as Juzz pointed out, to be more receptive to those who show some respect and real interest in the sff community -- those who are neighbors, not just invading strangers.

    Sites like SFFWorld are micro-communities of this larger network and are run by fans. They allow authors amazing access to potential readers, and not just as ad space on a billboard. So antagonizing fans and sites so that you'll get kicked off of them as a marketing strategy makes about as much sense as hitting a skunk with a stick and then standing behind it.

    Ultimately, you have to decide whether you want to do marketing or you want to build a fan-base. A fan-base is a potentially greater, more reliable source of income over the long term, especially if you're planning to write more than one book. And fan-bases don't jump on board just because you mention the title of your book in a post.

    Also, Robert, you mention something about proceeds from your work going to the kids you work with or something like that? In that case, approaching sites regarding you having a charitable endeavor you are undertaking might get you more support than arriving on a site, breaking all the rules you agreed to follow when you signed on, and then flouncing off. As someone who works with kids and seems dedicated to his day job, I'm sure you understand the value of person-to-person interaction over cold, hard commerce. And the value of keeping one's word.

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