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  1. #31
    bmalone.blogspot.com BrianC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG
    Sites like SFFWorld are micro-communities of this larger network and are run by fans. They allow authors amazing access to potential readers, and not just as ad space on a billboard.
    Darn right. And it's not all (or even mostly) about making a sale. Consider the fact that HE is beta reading my novel right now, providing valuable feedback, and doing so out of the goodness of his heart. (I know, I know, no one expected to ever read 'goodness', 'heart' and 'HE' in the same sentence). Of course he's also a writer and I fully expect that he'll cash that chip in some day when he needs it, and I'll be there for him. [/sappy violin music]. Consider also that there are consistently 4 or 5 or 6 times as many guests lurking on these forums as registered members. They may not be saying anything, but I wonder what they're reading . . . and thinking

  2. #32

    And So It's Devolved to This

    Thanks for the confirmation -- very sad state of affairs: relationship building is prerequisite to arts appreciation. I suspected that such was a predominate youthful value. Not that long ago, pre-cyberspace, it was opposite, but not necessarily better.

    While perhaps good advice to young artists bent toward the longshot of commercial success, thanks anyway. If I have to get you to like me, produce what's popular at the time...well, that's not art anyway. It's craft, and I don't mean to diminish the worth of imitation. It's not my thing.

    My rejection of contemporary marketing approaches is essential to what I write. I'm not a kid who wants to be a star and willing to kiss a__ along the way. I don't give a crap if you like me or not. I don't want to know you, or about you. In my opinion, if any site for written word doesn't have an opportunity to present materials by unknowns, including sites maintained by capitalistic authors, the owners, admins, and mods deserve to get cancer only curable by cultural correction. Further, I believe they will. (I'm an old hippie.)

    Plus, if my novel doesn't make money (it's currently rated five star by mobipocket readers), it's no skin off my head. My attitude is for you to suck it up while I'm alive, which may not be that long, and that's okay too. I've tons of accomplishment to go down with, including lots of nonfiction published, and hundreds of kids I've helped. I have no ego investment in my first fiction novel, and if I get too much of a hassle, I don't feel compelled to finish the sequel. Being banned by a ridiculous site that applies standards for the purpose of consistent reader programming is as much or more fun than posting comments on another when I really feel like I should be finishing a story or poem in the works -- lots pending. Actually, if I hurry up and get banned from everyplace possible, I'll have no excuse not to concentrate and produce.

    Kat (or whomever), since you chose not to even read my essay, free online (but the print version does cost), subsequent comments to me are misdirected. Art is not equivalent to the artist's personality or other qualities. It stands or dies on its own, even contemporary readers don't check it out. We would not have real rock and roll now if the top forty had dominated at the time. Generally speaking, popular sucks.

    Robert Eggleton

  3. #33
    aka. Stephen B5 Jones MrBF1V3's Avatar
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    While I'm itching to ask the question; Then why do you write? I think I'll spell out my POV first.

    I am a hobbyist, a writer for the fun of it. If I didn't enjoy it, I would waste my time doing something else. Yeah, once I was young, I thought what I wrote had to be published. I had to make a name for myself. Etc. etc. but I never saw my name on anything but rejection letters, and now I've moved on. Recently I've had a short story published in an anthology. It was fun. Other people got to read it. I'm still not willing to ditch my day job. I would have difficulty if I wrote a best seller. I really like my day job.

    You don't care if I like you or not. Then why do you care if I read any of your stuff? Maybe the question I want to ask is; Then why are you published?

    I find you confusing.

    B5

  4. #34
    I AM too a mod! Moderator Rocket Sheep's Avatar
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    Day jobs keep writers sane... writing is just a dirty little habit that can't be kicked.

    (I hope HE isn't using the patented Sheeple critiquing method on your work... it has undocumented side effects)

  5. #35

    What does POV mean?

    Thanks and sorry for my ignorance.

  6. #36
    Administrator Administrator Hobbit's Avatar
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    POV = Point of View (usually).

    Hobbit
    Mark

  7. #37

    Thanks for POV

    Hobbit

    BTW, another reviewer asked for a copy of my novel yesterday. He was a Big Time, so I'm a little insecure about upcoming findings. He said that it would be his first ebook review and that he was making an exception to company policy -- stress city.

  8. #38
    Just Another Philistine Hereford Eye's Avatar
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    I wonder if I understand the argument at all.
    The essay seems to propose that a person be allowed to do anything on the Internet that they feel like doing, including mucking up other peoples' interests with their commercials.
    The posts seem to maintain that there is no interest in selling anything even though any commercials would be targeted at selling the book but, by the goddess, that's not the point of it all.
    Then why is it that the writer wants to market the book in cyberspace anywhere and everywhere he pleases?

    My POV is that I well and truly dislike commercials wherever they occur. I mute my TV whenever they appear; I religiously don't read any pop-ups that happen on PV screen; and most of the time I ignore the stuff Dag allows on sffworld although I did read our ad for Seven Threads a lot. I think I am savvy enough to understand that these ads pay some of the bills and that even Dag needs some help defraying costs so there are commercials floating around the edges of sffworld. Hell, most of the sffworld blogs are commercials! But, not the forum. Have significant trouble understanding why that should be an issue.

  9. #39

    Of course not

    Please check out the essay if you want to discuss my POV (this is the first time I'm ever used that -- LOL). But, if the comment wasn't directed this way, apologies. My POV, however, is that almost all statements are advertisement for something.

  10. #40
    Just Another Philistine Hereford Eye's Avatar
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    As I wrote, I found the essay an interminable argument that a person should be allowed to post anything they want anywhere they want - notably excluding child pronography. Interesting that you are willing to engage in censorship for topics you find unpalatable but not willing to extend that 'right' to others.
    As others have said, a person can open a website and post whatever they wish. That is a perfectly valid freedom. Of course, if I were to open a website, then that URL is my domain and I get to prescribe the rules for my domain. I paid the fee for owning the domain and, it seems to me, contract law now applies. You want to come on my site, you get to obey my rules; that's the contract you sign to get in.
    And, in my POV, it's a bit disingenuous to play semantics with advertising. You are absolutely correct that this post advertises my opinion in the sense it is laying it out for there for all to see but you are absolutely propagandizing as well since I am not soliciting anyone to purchase my opinion, much less agree with it.

  11. #41
    Loveable Rogue Moderator juzzza's Avatar
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    Robert, unfortunately for you, your POV will put some readers off... others won't care one way or the other.

    I didn't say you had to make friends with members of a forum for them to give your book a shot, plenty of new authors are being read by members here, and they haven't posted once... I said be mindful of net-iquette.

    Art?

    The difference between a novel and art, is that usually the masses get to enjoy great pieces of art for nothing... you are trying to sell your art. Does every author see themself as an artist? I don't.

    Relationship building is not necessary for art appreciation at all... but you have entered an online COMMUNITY... built on relationships... and expect to be able to pimp your work, disguised as conversation and then cry about not kissing a*s because you get called up on it. Make your mind up; if you want to play the game do it wholeheartedly.

    You say:

    Quote Originally Posted by RE
    My rejection of contemporary marketing approaches is essential to what I write
    And yet you are trying to sell your product in a modernist fashion by assuming repeated mention of your novel will result in sales!?! Read my post on being a door-to-door salesman again, you've made no attempt to understand your market, the medium or the rules of play... seems to me like you have rejected the art of listening rather than contemporary marketing approaches... I'd be interested in what you consider to be these approaches that you feel you have rejected.

    Ironically, Robert, your attitude may result in some people actually reading your work, who may never have considered it. Some will want to read it to see if it's any good and what the fuss is all about... but a sale's a sale, right?

    You're a clever guy, clearly, and whilst you say you have no ego invested in your work, you clearly have plenty invested in your approach to marketing it; and I gotta tell you, it won't work for you. Leave discussion forums for a while, focus on getting online reviews and interviews, let word-of-mouth build up without your interaction. You can't ignore the rules just because you don't like them. That's my advice for what it's worth.

  12. #42

    Cyberspace Infancy

    We are children of a new age of communication. While mostly looking at U.S. law on free speech, the essay advocates for the voluntary adoption of reasonable standards before subsequent likely litigation imposes. Cyberspace is public property. If you are religious (I'm not), by analogy, God owns it the way she owns the planet. You don't buy cyberspace by registering a domain name, setting up a server, or paying admins or mods. And, it's not for sale.

    My POV (3rd time I've ever used it), is that an author has a decision to make about putting up a site: a basic advertisement or an interactive one. If interactive, additional duties are assumed to protect public interests. The author's profits generated through communication on interactive sites are secondary interests and it doesn't matter how much she pays to maintain the site. It's an ethical and a likely upcoming legal duty assumed by creating public interaction that requires one to permit free dialogue, including the posting by someone who thinks the author's work sucks. Nobody forced the author to put up an interactive site and it can be taken down at any time, but when in existence she doesn't own cyberspace. It's also not for rent.

    I recommend that you look closer at Lacy Dawn's recommendations at the end of the essay. She's pretty smart.

  13. #43
    Edited for submission Holbrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juzzza
    . You can't ignore the rules just because you don't like them. That's my advice for what it's worth.
    And good advice. I have bent the rules now and then. Also got up a lot of peoples noses. Not selling anything, except my opinion on matters. Now I don't, not often anyway. The pain was not worth the gain, truth be told. And I have sat both sides of the fence, both forum member and Mod/Admin. The latter is a thankless task and I will never take it on again on a major forum.

    On the matter of pimping your work (for want of better words) I saw a chap doing it with all the charm of a snake-oil salesman at a convention. It got so bad folk were avoiding both the dealers' room and the bars if they saw him coming. But he sold books, could sell to the devil, I swear. One person admitted to me they had bought one, but would not buy the next in the series, once bitten I suppose. So which is better, to make a sale by being under a person's nose or one through good reviews/networking. I personally think the latter will get you a second sale.
    Last edited by Holbrook; August 19th, 2006 at 12:33 PM.

  14. #44

    The light blue boxes

    How does one put quotes that way?

  15. #45
    Loveable Rogue Moderator juzzza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roberteggleton
    We are children of a new age of communication.
    Wrong... we are children of a new age of communication mediums... manners are still important.

    Cyberspace is public property.
    But this Website is private property.

    If you are religious (I'm not), by analogy, God owns it the way she owns the planet.
    I don't see her paying for it... in fact, she owns my house too and yet the bitch lets me pay the mortgage!

    You don't buy cyberspace by registering a domain name, setting up a server, or paying admins or mods. And, it's not for sale.
    No one owns the earth and yet we can buy little chunks of it, build a house and impose our own rules.

    I can see you're a fan of Dawn... ain't gonna change the minds of the people you are trying to convince... smart people are wrong all the time, especially about 'people'. There's always a danger with using analogies... that's all they are and Cyberspace, doesn't exist... the reality is that it is servers and domains, that cost someone money.
    Last edited by juzzza; August 19th, 2006 at 12:52 PM.

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