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  1. #46

    No Tresspassing Signs

    Cyberspace is not private proterty the same as land, the house built upon it, or the cars that drive over it. Even if it was, historically, property interests invite governmental intrusion. As examples: zoning ordinances, health codes, building permits, vehicle inspections, and on and on. Public policy trumps private property interests everytime. Again, nobody forced you to buy that house, and by paying the mortgage you aren't absolved of the other responsibilities that come with ownership.

  2. #47
    Loveable Rogue Moderator juzzza's Avatar
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    OK... but you try coming into the house that I don't own, and sit in my dining room (that I don't own) and start ranting on about what I do and don't own... you'll get a dose of reality, and feel the door hitting you on the backside as it slams shut... and you won't get an invite back.

  3. #48
    Loveable Rogue Moderator juzzza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roberteggleton
    How does one put quotes that way?

    You need to put QUOTE inside these little boxes [] at the start of the the text you want to quote and then /QUOTE inside these little boxes [] at the end of the text. if you put an = sign and then the person's name, inside the first box like this QUOTE=Juzzza, it will do as above.

  4. #49
    I AM too a mod! Moderator Rocket Sheep's Avatar
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    roberteggleton, did you write a whole novel without using POV?

    (HE! Hold me back! Laugh for those who know me: Read how Hainsey describes me bottom of 10th para:history of snova)
    Last edited by Rocket Sheep; August 19th, 2006 at 08:06 PM.

  5. #50
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    I restricted myself to the discussion on this thread and your comments in this thread, Robert, which make perfectly clear your views. I don't really particularly care what you think about the Internet.

    I said nothing about your writing, and how it should conform to some pop standard. In fact, regulars in this forum could easily tell you that I consider the very idea absurd. I didn't mention "art" at all. What I said was, if you're asking people to buy your book, attacking them seems a dubious publicity strategy to me. But you've now made it clear that you aren't interested in publicity or writing or sff or anything else but trolling, so I won't talk about the subject further.

    These forums are for discussion, not advertising. Members agree to abide by the rules of the discussion -- to respect the rights of other members. I'm sorry that you don't see the value in that. I'm afraid I don't see the value at all in your philosophy.

  6. #51

    Sorry if I was off-topic

    Maybe I lost touch with what we were talking about -- it's not uncommon for me. I got into ranting about how cyberspace is public property and that associated private property had diminished worth. J -- I don't understand why you are so angry.

  7. #52
    I AM too a mod! Moderator Rocket Sheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG
    I said nothing about your writing, and how it should conform to some pop standard.
    I did, I said "how can you write a whole novel without even knowing the concept of point of view"? That's like undertaking brain surgery without knowing where the frontal lobe is!

    roberteggleton, apart from starting threads in messageboards and making statements that annoy people (especially about POV and wishing I had cancer???) do you have any other self-marketing strategies? Or don't you really care because you don't want to make money, be known, respected, etc, etc. Is promoting your novel really your agenda here?

    It almost seems that you came to an internet forum to complain about internet forums. Whatever you set out to do... you're doing it really badly.

  8. #53
    aka. Stephen B5 Jones MrBF1V3's Avatar
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    I'm reminded of a sign I once saw in front of a post office. It said, "Public Property: Keep off the grass."

    As for the discussion here. I could disagree more, but I don't think we're done yet.

    I don't think cyberspace is public property. I don't think my house is public property either. I suspect public property is a myth.

    I don't think roberteggleton ever said he didn't understand the concept of point of view, he just didn't understand "POV".

    I have difficulty reffering to God as "she". But if that's what does it for you, by all means.

    I don't think you can separate the art from the artist, or the writer from the story. When I read something I usually get a really good idea of the personality of the person who wrote it.

    I don't think Juzzza is angry, he does, however, disagree.

    Yep, he did say he wanted you to have cancer. But he doesn't know you like we do.

    I don't buy cars from salespeople who insult my intelligence, or take for granted that I must buy from him/her. I don't go to movies because someone who was involved in making it said it was the greatest film ever produced, even if they show up at this site and keep posting news about pre-views and openings while pretending to be just another fan .

    Self-promotion is hard work, and evidently not for the faint of heart.

    B5

  9. #54
    Keeping The Equilibrium Erebus's Avatar
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    Just to balance things off a little bit and to change the mood, I think the brilliant and great RUSH said it best back in 1996...

    Net boy, net girl
    Send your impulse 'round the world
    Put your message in a modem
    And throw it in the Cyber Sea


    From Virtuality off Test For Echo

    Everyone understands the language of music...regardless of semantics.

  10. #55
    Edited for submission Holbrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roberteggleton
    Maybe I lost touch with what we were talking about -- it's not uncommon for me. I got into ranting about how cyberspace is public property and that associated private property had diminished worth. J -- I don't understand why you are so angry.
    I think Juzzza was annoyed more than angry.

    I will try and put another way what I think Juzzza was saying.

    You, roberteggleton, when you joined this forum clicked "I agree" to the rules and conditions laid down by the "owner" of this site. (Yes, owner, money changed hands to provide this site. This is a privately owned website. All websites are owned by someone. All servers are owned. You, yourself, pay to access the net in some form or other. So to say it is free is a misnomer. There is an old saying "nothing is free", and the more you think on the matter the more it is true, everthing has a price of some sort. It might not be coin of the realm, but there is payment. To deny life has such is self-delusional )

    Yet you say that you can do what you like on this site regardless of giving your word to obey the rules set down as guidelines to conduct here. The basis of such rules is to create the sort of atmosphere the owner wishes to. Like all societies this one needs rules and guidelines to function and protect its members, so the society can grow and florish. If you believe you can act as you like, disregarding the stated laws, then you are not only going to injure/harm the other members of that society, you are placing yourself outside the protection of that society.

    Man is by evolution, and the necessity to insure the survival of his kind, a social animal. By setting yourself up against the group in such a manner you are not going to be accepted.

    Now I am not, by what I am stating, saying we all should conform, be the same. The rules allow us to be different, to express our opinion, BUT they draw the line at certain behaviour that threatens the community, which is logical and for the most part acceptable to all, as the "protection" and access to others the comminuty gives the individual is desired by the members.

    That's enough of me acting as if I know what I am talking about. Off to lie down for the rest of the day
    Last edited by Holbrook; August 20th, 2006 at 03:13 AM.

  11. #56
    Administrator Administrator Hobbit's Avatar
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    Interesting article:

    http://How to Market Your Book Online.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Okay, you have your blogs and you've filled out your profile. There are links to your book on Amazon, B&N and so on, but nobody is visiting. How do you advertise yourself?

    You don't!
    Hobbit
    Mark

  12. #57

    On Rules of Conduct

    Maybe, as someone pointed out, my essay is too long to be read online; or, perhaps it was ignored by those commenting. It advocates for the voluntary adoption of standardized rules of coduct by all interactive sites based on public policy balanced against property interests. I believe that a site on which "anything goes" is as offensive as a site that censors all which doesn't make the "owner" a profit. I certainly don't oppose the existence of rules of conduct. Rather, they are a duty, and ignored by some extreme sites that promote illegal drug use, illegal access to pornography, violence, and other activities that violate public policy.

    Yes, I didn't know what "POV" meant. Thanks for the info.

    As to self-promotion advice -- start when you're young. Don't wait until your novel or story is finished, as I did at age 55. Establish relationships on as many sites as possible, including those that have nothing to do with SF or whatever genre you're into, and those that have anything related to your novel or other personal interests. When I posted here and there, it went straight to marketing, which was not necessarily a mistake for me given my age and the circumstances. Some of you are much younger and have the time to establish relationships -- soft sell -- a much better option if available.

    Personally, I don't believe, as someone posted, that the quality of your work has much to do with its success. Sure, there are a few examples here and there of someone who made it in sports, rap, writing, and other entertainment fields "against the odds." However, the days when Elvis was discovered while singing on a front stoop are long gone. I believe that much better manuscripts mold than are published, the same as better rappers can be found in most housing projects compared to on CD. Therefore, I also recommend that you not depend totally on your art to promote itself. Authorities think about one thing -- profits. That's not a crit. I recommend that you make your work look profitable.

    If you form relationships first, which I didn't have the time to do, it is less likely that your self-promotion will be regarded as spam. The public, it seems that the youth especially, have been conditioned by the status quo profiteers to reject self-promotion using a simplistic defintion of "spam." My advice is that it this happens to you, fight back. You are not spam and telling people about your work, about which they would never hear, is in the public interest. Don't let it get to you. Your success would reduce the profits of the well-established, and that's the only reason that the simplistic definition was promoted and that some get so aggressive. The circumstances were just right for the Haves to condition consumers to reject self-promotion by newbies, but this may change as the marketplace continues to deteriorate.

    Lastly, I've not said anything negative about this place. This is a good site and the world is better off for its existence. I don't want, of course, anybody to get cancer and don't remember my comment that would have left such an impression.
    Last edited by KatG; August 20th, 2006 at 12:17 PM.

  13. #58
    Loveable Rogue Moderator juzzza's Avatar
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    Hey, I was neither angry or annoyed! I'm actually fascinated... you can tell when I am angry, I don't post at all!

    So basically, Robert, in your post above, you are recommending that writers do the exact opposite to what you have done here at SFFW. At last we agree on something.

    I get it now... you are the 'Jesus' of new authors. You want to get banned for the sins of us new, marketing-retarded wannabe writers.
    Last edited by juzzza; August 20th, 2006 at 06:09 AM.

  14. #59
    I AM too a mod! Moderator Rocket Sheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roberteggleton
    In my opinion, if any site for written word doesn't have an opportunity to present materials by unknowns, including sites maintained by capitalistic authors, the owners, admins, and mods deserve to get cancer only curable by cultural correction. Further, I believe they will. (I'm an old hippie.)
    It was only a page ago, and I thought you were complaining that your attempts at linking thru posts at this site were anulled and therefore you wished us all cancer.

    It did seem v. bizarre but then... a lot of what you've supposed here seemed bizarre, hence my inability to take it seriously (as was evident by most of my posts).

    Awww, thanks for your nice comments MrBF1V3, and the lovely song Erebus and the really sensible words, Hols. V. sensible. Incredibly sensible.

    I still wonder (and this is my personal hangup as many of you know) how anyone doesn't know what POV stands for if they have written a novel. Surely they had viewpoint issues in said novel and had to seek help from books or other writers... in which case the term pov would've been familiar. It brings up quality issues. Of course, marketing is a big part of success, as roberteggleton has rightly said, but if the quality isn't there, it always comes back to bite authors, and it comes back ugly.

    roberteggleton, I need to know your quality assurance procedures (crit group, manuscript assessment, mentorship, etc) and whether you understand the terms viewpoint or pov. How would you rate your novel on other criteria, like pacing, plot development, characterisation, extension of your chosen genre? Do you know what you are marketing and where it fits in the marketplace? How?

    Why didn't you answer my questions about your understanding of the concept of pov in writing, your other non-netbased self-marketing strategies (that is the topic of the thread), and what you hope to achieve by this type of online activity?

  15. #60
    Yobmod Yobmod's Avatar
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    I don't want, of course, anybody to get cancer and don't remember my comment that would have left such an impression.
    I suspect you confused us all with this sentence:

    In my opinion, if any site for written word doesn't have an opportunity to present materials by unknowns, including sites maintained by capitalistic authors, the owners, admins, and mods deserve to get cancer only curable by cultural correction. Further, I believe they will.
    Nettiquette is easy to follow, and doesn't involve ass-kissing. Just don't type things you wouldn't say to a stranger in the street.


    I generally don't mind the self-promotion threads that appear in the forums. They rarely get any positive response, and sink without a trace (to the extent that i wonder if they are deleted).

    It does seem strange to me that some of the self-promoters think that you owe them something. The last one i replied to was offering free exerpts at his site, and hoped you would lobby the publishers to get him published.
    He thought my comment was 'rude', but as i'd wasted 30 minutes of my life reading the awful rubbish he's written, i feel i deserve to trash it (not that i did anyway).

    Posting information about your work is fine by me, as long as criticism is accepted with the same grace as praise. But either way it wont convince me to part with any money. And sticking it into an ongoing thread that has no relevance is much worse than starting a new thread, as it derails discusions, some of which have taken a lot of effort to get going.
    Last edited by Yobmod; August 20th, 2006 at 06:10 AM.

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