Hi all,
The discussion is open. I'm sleepy, so I'll be along tomorrow to do the opening and such. Wanted to get it up here in case people wanted to dive in, though.
Hi all,
The discussion is open. I'm sleepy, so I'll be along tomorrow to do the opening and such. Wanted to get it up here in case people wanted to dive in, though.
As i nominated it, here are some starter questions from myself and Erf:
1. What was your favourite story?
2. And your least favorite story?
3. Which stories did you feel had aged particularly well?
4. Were there stories that hadn't aged well? Is it a problem with the content or the writing?
5. Which was the most "dangerous" vision? Did you think that any of the stories would still have problems being published nowadays? Did any of them change what you think a SF can / should include? Were you ever shocked?
6. Did the intros add to your enjoyment? Did you like being given biographical data on the authors? Did Ellison's opinions given affect the way you approached the stories?
7. And the afterwords? Anything particularly illuminating or useful?
8. Could you see any clear infuences the book had on the genre? Did it affect only magazines / anthologies, or the genre as a whole? Are magazines / anthologies really any less 'safe' nowadays?
9. How did you rate the collection overall? Would you recomend it to genre newbies as a great intro, or only to more seasoned reader? Would you recomend collections or novels from the individual authors in preference?
Last edited by Yobmod; November 1st, 2006 at 10:39 AM.
I was delighted to see this particular collection make the cut as I had an old (read: very old) copy lying around. The edition I was reading was published in the early 70's and what I found just as interesting as some of the stories themselves was the fact that a number of the authors who piqued my interest have, sadly, passed on.
Definitely a mixed bag here. Some stories I enjoyed. Some failed to impress. Others I hated. One was so annoyingly self-indulgent I ended up skipping it altogether. Overall, an interesting selection, though I don't know if the title, "Dangerous Visions", is appropos. "Controversial Visions" or "Occasionally Distasteful Yarns" might have better suited some of the tales in this collection.
I barely skimmed the intros to the stories, focusing more on the snippets related to the individual authors of the works and a hell of a lot less on Ellison's self-aggrandizing reminiscences. I did read all of the afterwords to get some personal takes on the stories (and, in a few cases, insight into "what the hell was he/she thinking?").
About 50 or so pages into the book, I seriously wondered what the hell I had gotten myself into. I found Lester del Rey's "Evensong" embarrassingly heavy-handed. The same could be said for Pohl's "The Day After the Day the Martian Came", a clumsy, on-the-nose morality tale worthy of an afterschool special. Silverberg's "Flies" was an offensively nasty offering. I objected not so much to the actions of the main character, but to the fact that he was a mere spectator to his horrific actions, not feeling the effects of what he had done until the end of the story - at which point, the obvious unfolds. And then there's "Riders of the Purple Wage". What can I say? Not that much because after six frustrating pages, I had to skip ahead to the next story. Had I been on mushrooms at the time, I may have shown more patience.
I liked the idea behind "The Malley System", the notion of how a future society attempts to rehabilitate convicts, although too much of the story was dedicated to the descriptions of the various assaults/murders. In the end, the very idea that the Malley System has never turned out a rehabilitated offender raises the question why it's still being used. Robert Bloch's "AToy For Juliette" was another fun read. Some may fault it for being a little silly, but it presented an interesting little world with an interesting little twist. Sadly, the same couldn't be same for Ellison's "The Prowler in the City", a story whose core concept felt like the imaginings of a very young writer.
The really, really, really liked the next two stories. Aldiss's "The Night That All Time Broke Out" was presented us with a fun future scenario in which all hell (or, in this case, time) breaks loose. Loved it. "The Man Who Went to the Moon - Twice" was very touching and really resonated with me. Some may argue it technically isn't a scifi story, but I loved it nonetheless.
"Faith of our Fathers" was a vintage Dick trip, and "Jigsaw Man" offered up a more plausible (and frightening) prospect of our future justice system than Miriam Allen deFord's entry. Although I like Fritz Leiber, and I had read the story before, I wasn't a big fan of "Gonna Roll the Bones". A little too "out there" for my tastes.
I enjoyed "Lord Randy, My Son" (shades of The Omen). I also enjoyed "Eutopia", a story well ahead of it's time. David R. Bunch's offerings really intrigued, not so much for the story, but for the style in which they were written. I found the pacing and rhythmn of Bunch's narrative, particularly in "The Escaping", to be incredibly engaging. Anybody else feel the same way about his writing? Anybody familiar with any of his other work?
James Cross's "The Doll House", another story that could be better classified as fantasy rather than scifi, was one I'd read long ago - but enjoyed just as much the second go-round. "Sex and/or Mr. Morrison" was another matter. Did not like it and I'd love to hear what others have to say about this one.
"Shall the Dust Praise Thee?" was, like a couple of the early offerings, a little too obvious and on-the-nose for this reader. On the other hand, I thought Sturgeon's "If All Men Were Brothers..." was brilliant handling of a taboo subject. Eisenberg's "What Happened to Auguste Clarot?" was a bit of a head-scratcher. Like "Sex and/or Mr. Morrison", I'd love to hear what people thought. Slesar's "Ersatz" covers the same subject matter as "Eutopia", and definitely ends up looking the worse by comparison.
"Go, Go, Go Said the Bird" was a fine story although, in retrospect, didn't leave much of an impression. "The Happy Breed", however, was one that left a very strong impression of a world in which the convenience of mechanical caretakers is taken to an extreme conclusion. The second to last entry in which the characters deteriorate over the course of a few paragraphs was a terrific, unexpected twist.
I had a difficult time getting worked up either way for "Encounter with a Hick", an amusing enough short. "From the Government Printing Office" also made for an amusing read, a terrific POV tale. "Land of the Great Horses" was another one I enjoyed, with a premise, frankly, worthy of a longer treatment.
Wasn't a fan of "The Recognition", yet another all-too-obvious commentary on our moral failings. "Judas" was another good story whose premise could have lent itself to a longer treatment. And then, there's "Test to Destruction". In my opinion, the worst of the bunch. By far. Incredibly cheesy in terms of both subject matter and narrative, I kept wondering whether I was reading some sort of satire.
Despite the fact that the story is rife with implausibilities, I really liked "Carcinoma Angels". Like "Lord Randy, My Son", it was reminiscent of the old Twilight Zone. "Auto-Da-Fe" left me kind of cold, maybe because I couldn't shake the image of the exact same "Matador vs. car" scene from Death Race 2000. "Aye, and Gomorrah" was a nice end to the collection.
Although I couldn't really recommend this collection since there are too many weak entries in the bunch, I would recommend some of the individual stories: The Night That All Time Broke Out, The Man Who Went to the Moon - Twice, Eutopia, If All Men Were Brothers..., The Happy Breed, Land of the Great Horses, and Carcinoma Angels. And maybe Bunch's stories, more for the style in which they are written than the actual content.
Well, that's my general overview of the collection. Would love to get into it in more detail if anyone wants to focus on a particular story or two.
Evensong - I enjoyed the writing, but somehow guessed from the first page that 'He' was God, and the Userpers were humans. I spent the rest of the story hoping for something other than a 'Suprise - He is God!' schlocky reveal, which is what was provided.About 50 or so pages into the book, I seriously wondered what the hell I had gotten myself into. I found Lester del Rey's "Evensong" embarrassingly heavy-handed.
Not particularly dangerous to my (atheist) mind, not only because it has been superseded by more in depth stories about Man's hubris, but it was showing Man to be flawed and ignorant and prideful, which is a pretty standard Judeo-Christian opinion.
7/10.
The foreword and afterword were both boring, and didn't increase my appreciation at all. I don't care what he is like as a person, and the fact that the story was a religious exploration and allegory was obvious.
I think of Del Rey more as an Editor, and only secondly as a Cambellian writer, so I've not got his Best of… collection on my to read list. Would his fans say Evensong is among his better stories, or representative of his work?
Flies - This reminded me of Ellison (Paingod?) more than other Silverberg stories I've read. Well enough written, but I didn't like the instructional section breaks (Watch him now: / Observe the next oneSilverberg's "Flies" was an offensively nasty offering. I objected not so much to the actions of the main character, but to the fact that he was a mere spectator to his horrific actions, not feeling the effects of what he had done until the end of the story - at which point, the obvious unfolds., they felt clumsy. And the 'Dossier' was laughably simplistic, with it Low, Middle, High evaluations for Education, Intelligence, Economic levels, and Sexual Inclinations: 'Normal' - who was this dossier for? The aliens or humans? What was the point of showing it to the reader, apart from making the story more experimental in structure?
I guess the 'dangerous' part is the abortion-assault, but as Cassidy had no emotions, and the victim had only been described in one or two sentences, it felt flat rather than shocking.
Silverberg intention of looking at the way humans interact and prey on each other wasn't achieved either, as Cassidy turned out to basically be a robot. The aliens decision to give him his conscience back also made little sense; if they didn't like the job he was doing why not just discard him and start with another? Seemed like an addition to give him his cumuppance, making the story safe. 6/10
The FW said nothing about the story! Pointless!
For something similar, but better, I would suggest Silverbergs novels: Thorns & Nightwings.
The Day After the Martians Came - Another mixed response from me. I liked how the theme of 'all men are brothers' was introduced by showing the characters responses to beings that are truly different. But the jokes themselves were poor and unfunny and some of them I completely didn't understand. Which wouldn't have been so bad if Pohl hadn't felt the need to have 2 characters explicitly state that the jokes were just old racist jokes with Martians in place of the original target. Did anyone not understand this themselves?! But the drinking of Coke together was a nice (and relatively subtle!) touch.The same could be said for Pohl's "The Day After the Day the Martian Came", a clumsy, on-the-nose morality tale worthy of an afterschool special.
3 stories in and I'm struck by how condescending the tone is, as though the writers think that SF readers are social idiots. Also, some of the dialogue was very pulpy - why would a vet say "the result of their difficult and confined voyage through 137,000,000 of space"? The writer may be a science geek, but that doesn't mean the characters should talk like one!
I can't see how the story is 'dangerous', Martian chronicles was released 17 years before, and is much more insightful and cutting on race, and man's response to finding Martians.
7/10.
I took the aliens' decision to give his consciousness back a furtherance of their research. Now they have a guilt-ridden subject to study, not really a comeuppance. I think it's just more manipulation of the human race in order to study them.Originally Posted by Yobmod
Still, the fact that our protagonist had neither control of his actions nor his emotions at the time of his transgressions left me incredibly unsatisfied as a reader.
Maybe its just the scientist in me, but i thought it was an incredibly poor experiment design, and giving his conscience back would result in abnormal responses that couln't be applied to the rest of humanity. What did they expect to learn?I took the aliens' decision to give his consciousness back a furtherance of their research. Now they have a guilt-ridden subject to study, not really a comeuppance. I think it's just more manipulation of the human race in order to study them.
Also, why would he be guilt-ridden? He had no choice about the crimes he committed - he is entirely innocent imo. And this is why the story felt so non-dangerous; what is dangerous about evil aliens doing evil? It said nothing about humanity to me, except that people without consciences are not very nice, which i could learn from Disney's Pinochio.
The only story I have read from Dangerous Visions is Carcinoma Angels by Norman Spinrad. Fairly good as I remember: slightly twisted, avante-garde prose style, a bit of a slow burner for a short story but the ending was quite powerful.
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