Karsa Orlong vs. Cnaiür urs Skiötha

[Macklyn]

Saintjohn I can appreciate your thoughts and enjoy most of your posts, but I think you're missing the point here.
This indian fellow you speak of, which I have to say, sounds like an idiot for any type of outdoorsmen/guide/hunter. I have had a good bit of real life experience in outdoor winter survival in my youth, having been taught by an actual native american ojibwe(or chippewa if you like) in Minnesota when I was a boy/boyscout/weeblo, where I grew up.
I think this fellow spent too much time in the woods and became inured to the inherant dangers. Or maybe he was just sucking down some firewater at the time.

But enough of that, as I said, the point is that whoever this guy was, he was an average guy, right? He wasn't a Dunyain. If you've read the books, you know what kind of, not just intelligence, but extreme physical endurance and abilities Bakker is asking us to believe the dunyain have.
These are not average people, by a long chalk. If they made the kind of mistakes Kelhus made crossing the mountains, then he should have died there.
What are the chances, outside a fantasy book, that he would have been found and rescued by a mountain hermit, who's IQ was probably a hundred fifty points less than his own? Ask me to swallow one unlikelyhood, then ask me to believe an even bigger one?
Poor plotting, as I said.
If a writer wants me to believe in miracles they should at least have the wit to save such asking for more important aspects of the story. Like asking me to believe he can hang from a tree for days and then get up after being cut down and go out and defeat an army.
The really stupid thing is that this part of the story was completely unnecessary. If Kelhus had crossed the mountains without event the story would have been just fine and much more believable.

[saintjon]

Well you've got your take and I've got mine, that's fine by me.

[zev]

Actually this saves me from creating a new thread. Did I forget something about Karsa? Is there some reason he dropped his sword before fighting that demon? Seems a little presumptuous to get half-killed because you want to put yourself over having an MMA match with a demon. I can't see any advantage he had in giving it up at the time, they were fighting in a courtyard...

Whatever reason he may have had, props are due, but goddamn what happens if he tries that with a Seguleh or some ****?

I don't know if you've read Reaper's Gale or not Saintjon (if you havn't feel free to ignore this), but Karsa sparred against a Seguleh in that book and managed to beat her very easily. (He pounded down on the earth which made the Seguleh lose her balance then broke both her wrists with the flat of his stone sword and when she tried to kick him he caught both feet and held her like a toy.)

While in the book as far as I recall it gives no clue to the seguleh in question's rank, she was picked to fight the Tiste Edur emperor as a champion, which would indicate if she wasn't the Seguleh first she definately was a high rank. It seems clear that Karsa is a bad ass, though would he be able to take down the Seguleh without a weapon is open for debate.

[Macklyn]

I don't know if you've read Reaper's Gale or not Saintjon (if you havn't feel free to ignore this), but Karsa sparred against a Seguleh in that book and managed to beat her very easily. (He pounded down on the earth which made the Seguleh lose her balance then broke both her wrists with the flat of his stone sword and when she tried to kick him he caught both feet and held her like a toy.)

While in the book as far as I recall it gives no clue to the seguleh in question's rank, she was picked to fight the Tiste Edur emperor as a champion, which would indicate if she wasn't the Seguleh first she definately was a high rank. It seems clear that Karsa is a bad ass, though would he be able to take down the Seguleh without a weapon is open for debate.

I haven't read any book yet past HoC.
Even so, here-to-fore Karsa has somehow become an extraordinary fighter. How he's become so has never been explained. His life could have been taken very easily at any time in books 2-3 by mere human soldiers. He was, after all, captured and chained by mere humans and only remained alive to be sent to the ottataral mines. How he gained such martial magnificence after his escape is one hell of a mystery.
He goes from captured slave to undeafatble warrior wihout explanation.
In one book he can't defeat mere humans and in the next he's kicking the butts of even the hounds of darkness.
Erikson didn't even bother to write Karsa doing something as simple as training in-between. We're just suddenly left to believe he can do the latter when he couldn't do the former.
He was nothing but a stupid/ignorant barbarian when he left his village. Since then he's learned a lot about the outside world and his people's ignorance, but where along the line did he ever learn to be a better warrior than he was when he left this village?
Not just a better warrior, but suddenly, a God of War.
Am I the only one who sees a HUGE, unexplained GAP between the former Karsa and the latter?

[kater]

I think you're a bit off in that assessment, during the fight with the 'children' he and his two companions killed at least a hundred men - heavily armoured by the end - with little more than swords and clubs. His strengths seem to lie in fighting one-on-one but still it'd take a lot of human men to stop him. Also the Forkrul Assail 'fight' I think shows how tough the FA are/will be if we get to see more of them.

Karsa is Thelomen Toblakai meaning much bigger and stronger than the average human with a far greater pain threshold and recuperative abilities. They consume blood-oil which seems to be made partly of otataral, thus negating lower-level magic and even altering the effects of High level magic. Add to this an unbreakable sword which through the souls chained to it, appears to be a warren in it's own right. He chased off his seven 'gods', killing one and became the Knight of Chains. He has since killed

two hounds of _Darkness_.

As a character he's definitely over-powered and I think his fight with Icky proves that, but there has been some progression to his character so I don't see it as being an instant drastic change.

[Macklyn]

The incident with the forkrul assail; Calm, wasn't a fight by any stretch. Once freed, she tossed them around like baby chicks.
So, let's take a 33:1 ratio of humans vs. toblakai to kill one or take him captive. A pretty impressive display, I admit. Now let's imagine just one of those hounds of darkness going against humans. . . . What do you think that ratio woud be?
Myself, I don't think there would be a ratio at all. I think just one of those hounds would go through an entire army and trot happily away unless some serious magic was employed against them.
So, let's give Karsa the benefit of a doubt and say he could kill a hundred malazan soldiers himself before being killed or taken.
See my point here?
Invested magic stone sword or not, his martial skill is what it is. If anything he should wield the new sword much slower than he did his bloodsword. Stone vs. wood?
And still he managed to kill not just one hound, but both. Two creatures who move with preternatural speed and strength.
Karsa may be big, tough, fast-healing and damn strong, but I never saw him being mentioned as being particularly quick, let alone fast enough to counter two hounds of darkness.

From what I've read so far, Karsa has been very emphatic about rejecting the crippled god's offer. Does this change in the books to come?
I got the feeling he would never serve any god - not after discovering the seven had duped him and his people.

[kater]

So, let's give Karsa the benefit of a doubt and say he could kill a hundred malazan soldiers himself before being killed or taken.
See my point here?

Again kind of and not, fighting one or two opponents is far different to fighting many, particularly co-ordinated groups. Also comparing the relative killing efficiency of Karsa and a Hound doesn't imo have direct relevance. Like I said I think Karsa as a character is over-powered but the unbreakable sword he gains along with the chain of souls that seem to power his own little warren have ramped up his powers. To me the magic-defense is his key asset, the hounds powers could have been negated to a significant extent by this. It's what makes Karsa dangerous, think of all the major powerful characters and most of them are magic-aspected, sure he's not going to stop High level magic but it isn't going to end a fight with Karsa instantly. Having read Reaper's Gale I think there will be much more to come from Karsa and perhaps we'll be able to jude the character better knowing 'everything'.

From what I've read so far, Karsa has been very emphatic about rejecting the crippled god's offer. Does this change in the books to come?
I got the feeling he would never serve any god - not after discovering the seven had duped him and his people.

It doesn't change I was just trying to avoid spoilers for Reaper's Gale There are some HUGE plot points and interesting directions for Karsa in RG

[Macklyn]

[QUOTE=kater;416225 Like I said I think Karsa as a character is over-powered but the unbreakable sword he gains along with the chain of souls that seem to power his own little warren have ramped up his powers. To me the magic-defense is his key asset, the hounds powers could have been negated to a significant extent by this. It's what makes Karsa dangerous, think of all the major powerful characters and most of them are magic-aspected, sure he's not going to stop High level magic but it isn't going to end a fight with Karsa instantly. Having read Reaper's Gale I think there will be much more to come from Karsa and perhaps we'll be able to jude the character better knowing 'everything'.[/QUOTE]

So, I must be missing something here, not having yet read past HoC's?
A sword, no matter how strong is just a sword.
As to the souls chained to him, I always saw them as a curse, and believed Karsa saw them as curse as well. All of his sins chained to his own soul, that he had to pay for. All his tribes pathetic beliefs laid bare. Most of those souls chained to him were nothing more than plain and simple murdered souls - imagine you or me wading into a day-care center and slaughtering every 3-5 year old. Is there honor or glory in that? Those are exactly the kind of souls that are chained to him and he's learned exactly that. He has no honor: No glory: Only shame.
Those souls, IMO, are nothing but absolute negatives to his power. Certainly never a positive. He certainly spends enough time worrying over them in the books and never in a positive way, so where does this concept of those souls being a warren of power for him come into play?
In the newer books? "Cause it ain't in the books I've read.
And if so, does this mean Karsa is about to become an entirely new, living god?
A mortal being with their own warren? Even for Erikson, that would be a stretch.

[kater]

Yeah you'd need to get to the end of RG to put it all into context. Also I don't see any similarity between you killing children and the souls Karsa has collected in battle, there were some innocents in that initial raid but since then he seems to have fought only people or creatures attacking him. Different interpretations I guess.

[saintjon]

there have been several reactions by people to Karsa's speed, if he was ever slow he isn't now. He has probably gained some of that divine efficacy Paran talked about in The Bonehunters. Hopefully I will have the time to pick up Reaper's Gale today.

I'm curious whether the seguleh was chosen by the other seguleh as a champion or by the Edur as a champion? The Edur seem happy with just about any excellent fighter, and they are all excellent fighters.

[Macklyn]

Also I don't see any similarity between you killing children and the souls Karsa has collected in battle, there were some innocents in that initial raid but since then he seems to have fought only people or creatures attacking him. Different interpretations I guess.

No similarity? Am I missing something? Who calls what he and his two buddies did a raid? Everyone else in the world would see their so-called-raid as plain and simple butchery and slaughter; cold blooded murder.
How many of those unsuspecting villagers even had weapons
in hand?
Even one on one, putting a toblakai up against a strong human man is like putting a full grown man up against a ten year old child. There's no honor in such a one sided contest.
Heboric Ghost hands saw the collection of souls fairly explicitely as innocents; mostly women and children. Hence his disgust with Karsa upon meeting him. Heboric never knew or heard of Karsa before they met. His initial impression upon their first meeting went right past Karsa's appearance to the collection of suffering souls chained to Karsa. And the impression I got was that those souls numbered very high. Ten or so souls would have been few enough to put in words, but the fact that Heboric doesn't number them, suggests there are too many to count.
Heboric was not a man to be disgusted easily and it wasn't Karsa's appearance or personality that disgusted him.
Wasn't it Karsa's very lack of honor - his twisted soul - the reason the crippled god thought him worthy to join his house?

[Madness]

House of Chains has been sitting on my shelf unread for the past while and so having recently finished Scott Lynch's The Lies of Locke Lamora, I reimersed myself into Steven Erikson's epic.

I came onto SffWorld tonight to reread this thread Cnaiur vs. Karsa as I hadn't had understand of one half the competition until recently. Interestingly enough, I now only find myself incited to write to defend Bakker's writing; a man I find extremely thoughtful and intelligent.

For those of you arguing that Bakker planned or wrote poorly in having Kellhus almost die in the Demua Mountains then you are missing the point asserted by both saintjon and Bakker himself.

The Dunyain of Ishual live a very isolated existence. They are conditioned and trained to excel in any circumstance, yes, however, opposition forgets none of their number have left their fastness in two millenia. There are two clear reasons for Kellhus' near-inevitable death. Firstly, as saintjon wrote, Kellhus has lived for thirty three years in absolutly conditioned events with Ishual. Upon his release into the world, Kellhus encounters a reality full of "random" events. Unconditioned. Secondly, the Dunyain have lived in Ishual for two millenia, almost certainly with limited or no connection with the wilderness. So Kellhus displays ignorance, plain and simple, until encountering Leweth.