The more I read these books... [WOT]

[elric01]

the less I like them. Elayne thinks her mother is dead and yet she goes all around the world and refuses to go back to be queen. It seems impossible to me to believe that she would abandon her country and her "Loyal Subjects" to chase after the "Bowl of the Winds". Once she found the bowl does she go back? No she thinks of anyplace but her kingdom to be. Does she have no loyalty to her country or her kingdom? What if her land was falling apart while she runs around the globe? Seems very irresponsible and unbelievable to me. Did anybody else find this hard to swallow? Is she grateful to Rand for securing her throne? No! She does the typical thing all women in these books does, she gets angry and blames Rand for DARING to give her her kingdom which she apparantly does not care one whit about.

[Macklyn]

First off I have to ask; are you reading books simply to find fault in them? Because if so, you'll spend the rest of your reading life doing the same with every single book you ever read. We can always find fault in what we read, just like we do in real life. No author is so perfect you can't find something to nit and pick about.
Don't think so? Name just one book or author and see how many people will cut them to ribbons just because you asked.

As for Elaine - first off, she doesn't know her mother is dead - this is simply rumor to her. Indeed, how could it be anything but rumor, since her mother isn't dead?
Elaine is now an Aes sedai, not just an Andoran. As an Aes sedai, she sees the quest for the bowl of the winds as a goal worth more than just the fate of a single nation, even her own. She's seeing the overall picture of setting the entire worlds weather right. I think this speaks very well of her as a potential ruler, that she can look past just the borders of her own nation and work for the greater good. How long would Andor stand if the rest of the world went to the pit of doom?
As for Rand holding Andor for her and her attitude over it, well even that can be explained in the way it's told to her. She isn't given an explanation of the how and whys of it, only the hearsay, secondhand.
Once she does return to Andor did you not notice how much more calm she was over this issue? RJ may not have written it up in the books, but behind the words there was an understanding of what Rand did and why. Most likely explained by Min or Avienda.

I've got complaints about the series, too, but mine center more on the far more confusing aspects, like the killed forsaken being brought back to life in new bodies with new names.

[Zeratul]

Once she found the bowl does she go back? No she thinks of anyplace but her kingdom to be.

What are you talking about? After she found the Bowl and it was used the same day, Elayne went to Andor immediately.

I also don't see any problem with her choice to go searching for the Bowl. It had to be find otherwise a huge famine would've started very soon due to the extremely hot and neverending summer. The fate of the world is naturally more important than that of one kingdom, and she knew the situation in Andor wasn't so bad for the time.

[elric01]

I do not read books just to find fault with them. I have read fantasy for 30 years and this is the first series of books that has frustrated me to the point of looking for a board to post questions about. It just sucks to devote countless hours of my life to reading these books and the plot advances not at all or so slowly it is painful. I am up to the 8th book and this series should have been wrapped up long ago. The 7th book was 800 pages of talking and talking and braid pulling and sniffing. You have all the Aeil and they never fight. Even when he has two armies line up to fight it takes about one page for his battles and then he has 799 pages of dialogue. What you said is not true. If you go to other authors web-sites you DO NOT see everyone complaining about the same stuff over and over. 90% of the people on this board complain about the women and complain about the lack of action and plot advancement. It is not just me. This author apparantly does not read books he just writes them as he has no idea what makes a book interesting or what keeps people reading them. I would bet the sales of his last few books are far less that his first few novels and that is because they are BORING! Unfortunately I cant stop reading them because I have invested a large part of my life reading 6,400 pages at this point and now I sort of have to finish them or I have wasted the last 4 months.

[columbob]

[...] he has no idea what makes a book interesting or what keeps people reading them. [...] Unfortunately I cant stop reading them because I have invested a large part of my life reading 6,400 pages at this point and now I sort of have to finish them or I have wasted the last 4 months.

Apparently he has an idea on what keeps people reading his book. He's got you hooked, right?

[elric01]

I am "hooked" because I have already invested so much time and I want to find out how they end. If I knew now what I did not know then I would never have started them. So I am not hooked because of his great writing. I just read 15 books in a row by Raymond Feist and I loved every page and could not wait to sit down to read them. That is "hooked". I am reading Jordan's books for an entirely different reason and I would not pay money for them for any reason. I had these books given to me, if I had to buy them then I would not read them. If you guys love them then that is cool and I hope you guys enjoy every page. I guess they are just not my thing. Each to their own.

[Macklyn]

Elric, buddy, you are a fan, no matter what you say. You wouldn't have been moved to post if you weren't.

I enjoyed the first four or five books from Feist, but I would never put his work on par with Jordan.

I completely understand your frustration with parts of the books, especially the complete volumes of books 9 & 10 - they truly did suck for storyline flow. Both books seems to stand still. I wanted my money back for them, too, but when KoD came out, finally, I once again felt I'd gotten my money and times worth again.

I've said it before; I have my own complaints about the series - how can anyone not with such a long series? - but on the whole, I love this series. There are just so many characters in it that I care about.

The hardest part is waiting for the next book.

[Evil Agent]

The bad news, elric: The worst books are 8-10. And 11 is only a slight improvement.

I read the entire series years ago, but I am actually currently re-reading the series. I'm on book 3, and even though it's still pretty good, I think this is the first book where some warning signs start to appear:

1) Rand is not even in this book, despite the book being entitled "The Dragon Reborn". This is a phenomenon that only gets worse, as the "main" character (Rand) appears less and less.

2) the female characters are starting to become annoying.

3) there is a lot of repetition (of prose and dialogue) starting to become apparent.

4) Jordan seems to be getting bored with his main characters/storyline, so he starts exploring minor subplots.

Now that I've read the entire series, I can look back, and I honestly feel that there are several major storylines that are completely pointless wastes of time. The Bowl of Winds was one of the worst... so is that stupid travelling circus (UGH! Remember when this series used to be exciting? A travelling circus?!?!?). Not to mention the boring and pointless storyline about Perrin and Faile that lasts from Book 8 - 11, and brings nothing to the series.

I do really like the early books, but I think Jordan could have ended the series in about 7 books and made it far more powerful. Oh well.

[columbob]

I agree with most of what Evil Agent said, except I thought the Bowl of the Wind quest was pretty cool...until it took an extra book to bring to conclusion. I thought that would be done by book 7, but they only find the darned thing by the end of the book, much less get to use it.

One other thing about WoT which keeps prolonging the series: why does the author feel the need to resurrect the Forsaken? He's too attached to his characters, even the bad guys, and can't let them die.

Boring and pointless is indeed where a lot of the plot is/was going.

[ChrisW]

I am "hooked" because I have already invested so much time and I want to find out how they end.

I'm guessing by book 6 you had already decided you didn't like the books. So why didn't you stop reading then? If you had you still would have wasted time reading books you dislike but now you will have wasted twice as much time. So your time invested excuse is a pretty lame one as is wanting to know how it ends as you could easily read an online summary about the ending or just read the last few chapters in a bookstore for free. So either admit there is something about the books that you like no matter how much other parts of the story annoy you or admit your a moron.

I have read fantasy for 30 years and this is the first series of books that has frustrated me to the point of looking for a board to post questions about.

If you go to other authors web-sites you DO NOT see everyone complaining about the same stuff over and over.

Hrm for someone who hasn't been on other forums until now you seem to be a subject matter expert.

I would bet the sales of his last few books are far less that his first few novels and that is because they are BORING!

And you would lose that bet. Not sure how many KoD sold but CoT only sold slightly less than WH which outsold all before that from memory.

[columbob]

Not sure how many KoD sold but CoT only sold slightly less than WH which outsold all before that from memory.

I really wonder why that is though. Do people decide to pick up the series at book 11 or what? Or they borrowed the previous books from a friend or a library and decided they would buy the next one? Not quite sure about how to explain this phenomenon.

[Macklyn]

[QUOTE=Evil Agent;413230]The bad news, elric: The worst books are 8-10. And 11 is only a slight improvement.

I read the entire series years ago, but I am actually currently re-reading the series. I'm on book 3, and even though it's still pretty good, I think this is the first book where some warning signs start to appear:

1) Rand is not even in this book, despite the book being entitled "The Dragon Reborn". This is a phenomenon that only gets worse, as the "main" character (Rand) appears less and less.


Not true. Rand is included in most of this book, Perhaps not in first person mode, but the entirety of the story is focused on him almost completely. Every character is set on a path that leads straight to Tear and Rand finally coming face to face with his destiny.

2) the female characters are starting to become annoying.

The female characters are exactly what they were in the first book. Did you really expect them to become something less?

3) there is a lot of repetition (of prose and dialogue) starting to become apparent.

Name a book that doesn't evince the same pattern.

4) Jordan seems to be getting bored with his main characters/storyline, so he starts exploring minor subplots.

These subplots are what make a book a good read.

Perhaps you'd prefer this - Rand is born, he grows up, he learns he can channel, he goes through a bunch of moral testing, fnally comes face to face with the dark one and BAMM! . . . That's it?
Win or lose who'd care?

It's the journey and all its sidetracked characters and subplots that make the story.
The plot could be told as simply as I told it.

The talent of story-writing is everything inbetween the start and the end.

If you don't like the inbetweens then stop reading.

I've disliked a lot of books I've read, but you know what?
I've never felt compelled to do anything but toss those books in the trash and forget about them.

So why don't all of you do the same and just forget you ever read the WOT?

[elric01]

so do not tell me that there must be something about the books because I keep reading them and I really like the books deep down. If you want to know the truth I have them in e-book format and I read them at work when I am bored. They are the only books I have in the office in ebooks format and THAT IS THE ONLY REASON I CONTINUE READING THEM. It is a little better than staring at the walls when I have my work done. Like I said before I would not buy them. So you all can say I really like them and my time already invested excuse is lame but you are not me so you cant tell me I like something when I know I do not. It is either read these books or stare at the walls once I have finished my work for the day. So there! Also, I did not say I had not visited other author forums I said this series was the only series that made me mad enough to look for a Robert Jordan board to post comments. Again if you read this forum and another one I post on you will see the exact same comments. Some post titles (that I did not write) are "Have you bothered to finish reading the WOT Books" and "What is wrong with the women in these books" and there is even a word created called WOTISM to describe the uniquely annoying women in the ROBERT JORDAN books so it is not just me that has these same complaints.

[Evil Agent]

I'm sorry Macklyn, but I am going to have to disagree with you and defend my statements.

As for Rand barely appearing in the Dragon Reborn, what I said is true. He barely appears. I just finished the book today, and I know what I'm talking about. Don't give me that nonsense about "just because he doesn't appear in the first person, doesn't mean he's not central to the book". While you may be correct, that's not what I was saying. Don't try to play word games with me, because you will lose.

As for my statement that the female characters are starting to become annoying... I've now read these books twice, and I can honestly say that I only find their annoying quirks becoming overly apparent from book 3 onwards. I really never had a problem with Nynaeve or Egwene in the first two books. This is just a matter of opinion, so whether or not you disagree doesn't matter. But I do personally find book 3 to be the point where the female characters begin getting on my nerves.

As for your statement that "the subplots are what make a book a good read", that is again merely your opinion, and I definitely disagree with it. Sure, subplots add to a book. The subplots definitely enrich The Wheel of Time, A Song of Ice and Fire, and many other series. But I think a balance needs to be struck, and I believe that in the later WoT books, Jordan loses this balance. They are called subplots for a reason. If the subplots become the main focus, the balance is off.

And yes, I would rather read a series that focuses mostly on Rand (with some subplots, but not too many).

And as for this statement of yours:

if you don't like the inbetweens then stop reading.

Wow... So, just because I prefer the main storyline to the subplots, I am supposed to "stop reading"??? Um, no thanks. I enjoy the Wheel of Time, and I will continue reading it. Such statements are just bizarre. I can be a fan without being a fanatic. I do not have to like every single element of the books.

So why don't all of you do the same and just forget you ever read the WOT?

Once again, you have told me to stop reading the WoT, when I have said that I am a fan, I just dislike certain elements of the later books. Extreme statements like this only make you look like a fanatic, and weaken your points.

[ChrisW]

I really wonder why that is though. Do people decide to pick up the series at book 11 or what? Or they borrowed the previous books from a friend or a library and decided they would buy the next one? Not quite sure about how to explain this phenomenon.

The sales figures are only based on the year they are released and HB sales only. I'm sure EotW has outsold all the others but getting sales figures for it is beyond me.

so do not tell me that there must be something about the books because I keep reading them and I really like the books deep down.

Which means your a moron for wasting your time. Perhaps go get some other ebooks instead of reading something that is so painful to you and if you can't well then looking at the wall is prolly better. I know i'd rather that than reading a GRRM book.