The "I Should" books vs. "I Want To" Books

[RimWorlder]

"Mr. Psikeyhacker, we must not allow a classic science fiction gap!"

Funny. I'd made that comment about reinterpretation of classic works and then, watching the Strangelove clip psik linked to, and I get to the closing scene (the bombs going off) and the closing song starts with the line -

"We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when, but I know we'll meet again some sunny day..."


The next time I do a Halloween party up big, I'm going as Strangelove. Just the chance to rif on selecting women for their 'sexual characteristics of a highly stimulating nature' and playing around with that uncontrollable arm would make it all worthwhile.

[psikeyhackr]

"Mr. Psikeyhacker, we must not allow a classic science fiction gap!"

ROFLMAO

Damn Right!

psik

PS - I leave out the second 'e' in my handle so it has the same number of letters as Mickey Mouse.
I preferred Mighty Mouse though. That must give you some insight into my psikey. LOL

[RimWorlder]

sorry about the extra e. I was rushed this morning - the wife and I were going up to the White Mountains to take in The Flume and Lost River.

Great trip too.

But, on the way back, we got rousted by Border Patrol. They'd shut down both lanes of a two lane hiway and were asking everyone - "are you a US citizen?"

As far as I'm concerned, it was a violation of my protection against unlawful search and seizure.

And idiotic two. First - it wasn't a choke point - numerous routes around the location.

Second - what idiot trying to sneak into the country is going to answer "no"?

Normally, I would have stood on my constitutional rights and answered with "what business is it of yours (you effin nazi!)?" (and of course then refused to provide any formal ID until my attorney had flown in from Wisconsin) - but the wife was not up to spending a day or so in jail...

She also wasn't up for pulling over onto the shoulder, ostentatiously snapping pictures and calling friends on the cell phone.

She was also worried (unjustifiably as it turned out) that, because they had sniffer dogs on hand, that we were going to get hassled over my nitroglycerine also. Dogs trained to alert to explosives alert to nitro, and dogs trained to alert to drugs react to it as if its meth. And since I don't look anywhere near my age (and had my heart attack at a relatively young age to begin with) the few times its come into question, no one initially believes me (once had to have them call my cardiologists office to confirm).

Had a friend who carried nitro get pulled off a flight and his baggage was literally sitting out in the middle of the runway with a bomb squad near by, ready to preemptively blow it up. Naturally, the - let's call them "government representatives" were 'positive' that nothing in the whole wide world would make the dogs give a false alert.

its too bad I can't convince the wife to emmigrate to New Zealand, as I'd be there already if she was agreeable...

sorry for the off-topic

[ArthurFrayn]

Does anyone here listen to Math Rock

Actually listening to stuff online, they sound like Rollins Band from the Chris Haskett period to me. -minus the truly tricky time changes. They were seriously into Crimson as well.
I like Rollins Band better. Hank is a more charismatic screamer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDVs0...eature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtf4I...eature=related

[Ropie]

I always liked Henry Rollins, but I never liked him much

[theWallflower]

The underlined portion of your post... pretty sure that's two ways of saying the same thing

If this is what you believe then either I have misled you, or you have misinterpreted me from the beginning.

The difference between a book on a desert island and a book for a writer is the question of whether he has to read it. Someone reading a book on a desert island is not reading for 'work', that person is reading because it's something to do, or they want to for pleasure.

What I'm talking about is reading it for education, or for 'work' or research. Not reading it because you want to, but because you have to (although there is no explicit order saying it, but author society seems to look down on you if you don't).

Unless you end up on American Idol... yeah, pretty much. You might send out unsolicited demo tapes, but you're much more likely to be discovered through ground level buzz than through submitting demos. They call it putting in your dues, or slugging it out... the grind. It's why the record industry employs A&R reps.

I do not believe this, and again I believe you have misinterpreted me or made my statement more complex than it was meant to imply. I have friends in the music industry. And just playing gigs night after night is the equivalent of shouting into the wind. You talk about ground-level buzz, but where does that ground-level buzz come from? It's not spontaneous, and you can't just wait for it to happen. You have to send demo tapes to companies, but also for the fans - CD's and t-shirts. You have to practice with each other. You have to make up websites and contact podcast producers and MP3 sites. If you're not a cover band (and you shouldn't be, since those rarely ever make it big), then you have to write your own songs and practice them and tweak them. And you need feedback on your performances. You need contacts on the ground and in the air, and you need to maintain those contacts, and contacts of contacts. It's constant, constant, constant self-promotion.

None of this has to do with my original point, but what I'm saying is that you can't just play and do nothing else and expect to get good at it, just like you can't write and do nothing else and expect to get good at it. This is what those people who are telling me to avoid other's writers blogs are saying.

[Nicolas]

Wallflower, you shouldn't feel obliged to read a book if you don't want too. Just because a lot of people have read a lot of classics doesn't mean you have to as well, and if you feel you are being rejected or left out of the conversation because "what do you mean, you haven't read Dune?", then maybe you are trying to mingle with the wrong crowd. Don't let peer pressure dictate what you should or should not read, what you should or should not like ("what do you mean, you don't like Dune?") or you will spend too much time trying to "fit in" and not enough enjoying yourself.

A quick look at my "to read" pile and i see amongst others Stranger in a strange land, The left hand of darkness and Neuromancer, still unopened, still unread. You are not alone


Regarding new publications, according to this february's Locus, a total of 1710 new books have been published in the field in 2007. That's not counting the reprints of already existing material, another 1013 books. And that's in the US only, it does not include the rest of the world ! Even if you're only restricting yourself to new material, you would have had to read an average of 4.8 books a day, every day, no days off.
You see where i am going: whereas it has been many times reported that it was still possible to keep oneself up-to-date with the field up until somewhere in the early 50's, trying to do so nowadays is preposterous.

If you are a writer, it is normal to look for background, do some research into the subject. You may have to read some books you may not enjoy in the process, but at least when you start writing you'll know what you're talking about.

What about style and originality?
I find that i appreciate a book more when the author carefully builds and describes a new world with clarity and fluidity without being too derivative. In order to do that, one sometimes has to, not ignore, but put aside the classics and find his or her own way. What do you think?

[Fung Koo]

Dang it, and I wasn't going to belabour the point....

The difference between a book on a desert island and a book for a writer is the question of whether he has to read it. Someone reading a book on a desert island is not reading for 'work', that person is reading because it's something to do, or they want to for pleasure.

For me, the question is not between work and play, but involved with finding something to read that will still be good and still have a quality of newness for a potentially infinite number of repetitions. The desert island conceit isn't simply a question of "what would you take to the island that would give you pleasure" -- if that was the question, the answer is simply "I would bring my hands."

If I was going to pick a book for myself to take with me to a desert island I could be marooned on potentially for the rest of my life, the book I'm going to choose is something that can conceivably be enhanced upon multiple readings -- that will bring me a unique pleasure each time I reread it for something to do. So for that reason, the book I would choose to bring is something that I enjoy, but also something that challenged me, hinted at hidden depths, and probably one that others call a "classic."

If, on the other hand, I had to recommend a book to someone else to take with them in the same situation, I've got to make an evaluation between momentary gratification and lifelong satisfaction. I could send you to the desert island with a Tom Clancy book. I think they're often lots of fun. But only for an hour or so. On reread they offer nada, zip, zilch. If I sent you to an island with a Clancy book, you'd probably think I was being mean to you. On the other hand, I could send you to the island with something that I hope would bring you pleasure many times over.

And if I'm making that assessment, then I'm describing a classic. Something I think you not only need to read, but is worth reading over and over.

But based on your reaction to my response, I think the real problem here is that the desert island scenario isn't the right conceit for what you're talking about.

A better hypothetical might be: There are two roughly equally sized libraries of Science Fiction and Fantasy in front of you. One is full of every single copy of all the books published from 1990 to today, and the other is full of every copy of the books published before 1990. A man holds a gun to your head and says you have to burn half of the books, and that burning them will erase every single copy of those books from existence, for everyone, forever. Which half do you choose?

What I'm talking about is reading it for education, or for 'work' or research. Not reading it because you want to, but because you have to (although there is no explicit order saying it, but author society seems to look down on you if you don't).

All I can do is turn this back on to you. Do you feel that being well read across a broad spectrum of time and topics will enhance your writing?

...just playing gigs night after night is the equivalent of shouting into the wind. You talk about ground-level buzz, but where does that ground-level buzz come from?

If you didn't pick it up from the Math Rock ramble... Music is my other baby. The example you're using here isn't quite applicable, though. It's not the self promotion and whatnot that's at question. It's awareness of history and tradition.

So yeah, as an author you need to self-promote, and as a musician you need to self-promote. But quality work speaks for itself. And that's what we're talking about. Buzz is generated about quality, not how good you tell me you are. Cuz I'll only believe that you're good after I hear what you've written and found it to be good.

You originally asked if it's important, as a writer, to read the classics. Just about everyone said: yes, it will improve your writing. So the analogue in music is: as a songwriter, do you need to listen to the classics? And the answer is: yes, it will make you a better songwriter.

Self-promotion is somewhat important, but it's no substitute for quality work.

Look at Paris Hilton. A perfect example of all-promotion, no-quality.

None of this has to do with my original point, but what I'm saying is that you can't just play and do nothing else and expect to get good at it, just like you can't write and do nothing else and expect to get good at it. This is what those people who are telling me to avoid other's writers blogs are saying.

No, they're telling you that the blogs are a distraction from the things you need to do to actually improve your writing. Learning the art of self-promotion is great and all, but you've gotta have something worth promoting yourself on. Otherwise, you end up like the occasional self-published trolls we see on this forum from time to time pushing their Vanity Pressed, unedited, low quality, boring, uninteresting, unvetted, derivative PoS novels. (Very, very, very few of such novels have ever made it to the classics list, PS.)

And the offer still stands -- if you want help finding a classic that will appeal to you, let me know.

[Nicolas]

finding something to read that will still be good and still have a quality of newness for a potentially infinite number of repetitions

That's as good a definition of a classic as i've ever read, and defines well the kind of satisfaction and pleasure people get from reading them.

[RimWorlder]

Nicolas, sorry, but I have to disagree with some of your pronouncements.

If you are reading for entertainment, the discussion is entirely meaningless.

If you are reading for mastery, any kind of mastery, then starting at the roots of a genre is essential.

Likewise on style and originality.

When I used to design board games, there were certain new releases I stayed away from while designing - but I still studied the roots of the genre. More often than not, my new design did not overly duplicate what any other designer had done with similar subject matter, but the chances are better than even that they would have if I wasn't familiar with what had gone before.

The smart money is on have a solid grounding in the classics and then "surveying" those recent works that are of the 'type you want to write'. I'd also caution that doing a general survey of the last year's releases will help you discern what the publishers are buying and what they aren't buying. So, that makes three classes of books an aspiring genre writer should read - the roots, the branch and the crown.

Someone worried about accidentally writing in the same style as someone else hasn't found their voice yet. The fact is, a new writer WILL either be influenced by someone(s) they've read AND/OR their work (if succifiently professional) will be looked at as being 'like' this, that or the other - whether they've read this, that or the other or not. There's no possible way to escape past influences.

My take is - TRY to write like the people you like to read. You've probably got a better handle on what makes their stories so enjoyable to you. Originality can come from plot, characterization or style - it doesn't have to come from all three.

[Fung Koo]

one sometimes has to, not ignore, but put aside the classics and find his or her own way. What do you think?

Not sure if this is what Rim is objecting to in your post specifically, but just by way of clarification, by "put aside" you mean that one sometimes needs to change their focus and put the classics down from time to time to give oneself room to develop their own voice, even though one is still reading them -- not "put aside" as in ignore the classics entirely. Yes?

[Nicolas]

Fung Koo, RimWolder, yes, by "put aside" i didn't mean disregard and completely ignore previous works, i apologise for the confusion.

I agree, a knowledge of books, subjects, styles of writing, character presentation and structures, the history of the genre is a necessity. A book needs to know where it's coming from as much as where it is going, and not just to avoid plagiarism. I read for pleasure, and i find a book a lot more enjoyable when i have the feeling that the author has with him this baggage and knowledge with him/her.

However, it shouldn't be an assignment. If catching up with the classics becomes a chore, regarded like some kind of homework and if learning about them becomes an unpleasant task, then it might be better to leave it for a bit. Read (write?) something new and fresh, don't worry too much about what other people will think, and when the time is right, come back to the classics.

But then RimWolder you are right, i read for entertainment and i am not a writer, so i cannot speak from the same perspective. But i do believe that this balance you're speaking of between the old and the new, this "smart money" position, can be achieved by a writer who enjoys what he is doing. Otherwise, what's the point of writing?

[Randy M.]

About how the industry works: You're right that knowledge of the profession is vital to becoming a professional writer. Also vital is getting published. But I've come across statements by pros that knowing what's hot now won't help you because by the time you produce something in that vein and get it to a publisher, that may no longer be hot. (I don't know that, if so inclined, I'd try writing a vampire romance right now, although that sub-genre has shown more legs than I expected.)

First, I think everyone is confusing 'classics' with 'essential reads', myself included. One may not necessarily imply the other.

One thing I've come across again and again with writers is that they don't differentiate between classic and essential when reading; before they become published writers, they have read most everything they can lay hands on. And not just the genre they wish to write in. Ray Bradbury in an introduction to a collection by Henry Kuttner acknowledged Kuttner's encouragement -- downright pushy at times, apparently -- in getting the young Ray B. to read Faulkner, Hemingway, and other prominent writers of the time.

So, again, the answer to your initial question is, if you're just a reader, read what you enjoy.

If you're a reader with aspirations of writing, then read whatever you lay hands on. As for reading classic/essential books -- really, they aren't likely to be classed by some readers as 'classic' if those readers don't see them as essential; and no one's likely to tag a book 'essential' without also considering it a 'classic.' Will you like them all? Nope. Probably won't like all the new, much-discussed books, either, and literary history is full of celebrated writers who don't care for the work of other celebrated writers. But knowing what's come before gives you perspective. It may even help you decide on where you want to go. Or not. That's sort of a crap shoot. There's no easy answer to your initial question.

Randy M.

[Bond]

The would-be writers who achieve success are the ones who will find that classic who's time has come to be re-interpreted.

It should be noted that to re-interpret does not only mean to update to current times and say essentially the same thing. It may also mean outright disagreement and violent reaction against an established pattern of thought. Maybe one way to go into reading classics is not with the mindset to "learn" from them but with the intention of discovering your own personal reaction to them. I would note, however, that with great books your initial reaction is seldom your only one. Sometimes it takes time to realize how potent an idea in a book is.

[Randy M.]

It should be noted that to re-interpret does not only mean to update to current times and say essentially the same thing. It may also mean outright disagreement and violent reaction against an established pattern of thought. Maybe one way to go into reading classics is not with the mindset to "learn" from them but with the intention of discovering your own personal reaction to them. I would note, however, that with great books your initial reaction is seldom your only one. Sometimes it takes time to realize how potent an idea in a book is.

Absolutely. And very well-stated.

Randy M.