Book 5 is where it all starts to go wrong!

[Fred Gallney]

Because at the end of the day what stays in memory? Page count? Indeed not.

Well, actually, in the case of Wheel of Time, for me, the page count is very vivid in my memory.

I don't know if you know the feeling to be lost within a story.

Well, in the case of Wheel of Time, I was literally, "lost" within the complex subplots and the subplots that branched off those, the millions of pages and the great cast of characters. Half the time I was struggling. The only time I could really see eye to eye and understand cmpletely what was going on was when the core plot came into action, and after Eye of the World we didn't see much of that, unfortunately.

All I know is that there are many scenes which are still vivid in my imagination,

Basically only The Dark One's pit is still vivid in my mind, from the Prologue of Lord of Chaos, and I only finished the seres a few months ago.

because they were described in such love to details, despite that I read them years ago. That, as I
said in my other post, I wanted to read on and never stop. You say it's rambling, I say that's the
essence of RJ's success. At least with people like me. He wrote with heart, even if it sounds strange
and overblown to many.

Thats why Jordan's later books after Crown of Swords should never have been published, least of all Book 10. Jordan could have wrote that for himself, but at least he could have spared the rest of us the boredom. There was abolutely no reference to the core plot in Book 10. Even the other plots slowed down to a crawl. I mean, seriously. Some scenes were dedicated to a character having dinner, or something boring like that, or else boring dialog between Nynaive and Elayne, or something like that. No one actuallycares what so-and-so had for dinner, or Nynaive always pulling her braid off. Book 10 was dedicated to being a book of boredom, the plot stopped completely, and it basically contained all the elements a good book should not have. If anyone thinks Book 10 was a grand piece of work...well, I guess they enjoy books that don't have a plot.


There are books I've read recently I can't remember names of second
characters or the plot properly. I'm sure you would call the authors excellent due to the fact that they
wrote in brief and none-describe. But you see, I can't remember much of the books so what's the point?

So, I don't know if RJ was a good writer but he gave me hours of joy and plenty of moments to
remember. I haven't found another author who have made such impact on me.

As a side note: I'm reading "The Dispossessed" by Ursula LeGuin, to get my brain working and even if
I simply adore this woman, and always have, I doubt she will ever leave such imprint on my mind as RJ.
The world acclaims Ursula as an excellent writer.

I hope my rambling was coherent enough, if not sorry that's best I can do now.[/QUOTE]

[ChrisW]

he gave me hours of joy and plenty of moments to remember.

That's my definition of a good writer and imo the only one that really counts as liking and enjoying something is a personal thing.

[clockwirk]

As long as the 'hours of joy' and 'moments to remember' outnumber the 'hours of boredom' and 'moments we wish we could forget', then we're good to go. For many of us, the latter outweigh the former.

I think everyone on this forum has had both moments and hours that were very positive while reading WOT. However, that's not the only thing most of us consider when rating an author.

[argon]

As long as the 'hours of joy' and 'moments to remember' outnumber the 'hours of boredom' and 'moments we wish we could forget', then we're good to go. For many of us, the latter outweigh the former.

Just so. Books like real life have ups and downs. You can get mad every time things start to suck or you accept them and move on.

So yes, some books aren't up to the same standard like other but there is always something interesting to find out and that's carry you over such speed bumps. But if you're stuck there's no reason to continue reading, I give your that.

In our case CoT was a bummer? OK, but KoD kicked ass again, right?

There's something I really don't get that people hate, literally, an author or books and still read and prattle about them on and on. Just take Laurell K. Hamilton. I've never in my life found, prowling the Internet, such many kids hating her and still reading everything she writes. They don't understand that's it's Laurell's story, not their, and being ugly and nasty they won't change anything either.
Life is really too short for that, maybe they will learn this one day.

ChirsW, now I don't feel like a freak.

[Fred Gallney]

In our case CoT was a bummer? OK, but KoD kicked ass again, right?

No, Knife of Dreams was almost as bad as Crossroads of Twilight. I was expecting KoD to pick up the pace in preperation for the grand finale, which is A Memory of Light. I was expecting huge battles between the forces of good and evil. I was expecting relevations in the White Tower and the hunting of Black Ajah, or alternatively Black Ajah taking over the Tower. I was expecting grand showdowns between the Forsaken and Rand. Instead, what I got was more pointles plots, and nothing much interesting happened at all that I can remember. I can't remember much of KoD, but then again nothing really happened. But I can remember that it was not satasfactory.

I still love the series for some strange reason, but that is my verdict. The series draw you in as well as repel you at the same time. I think its extremely unique and well done in that light.

[argon]

I still love the series for some strange reason, but that is my verdict. The series draw you in as well as repel you at the same time. I think its extremely unique and well done in that light.

How come that I can't believe you? With the love I mean. So you count the pages and don't remember KoD
because it didn't meet your expectations. O.K. that's fine, and you say there were just pointless plots. Sigh.
I haven't had much trouble to find a scene, among others, that remained with me and by no means was
pointless:

"My name is Nynaeve ti al'Meara Mandragoran. The message I want sent is this. My husband rides from World's End toward Tarwin's Gap, toward Tarmon Gai'don. Will he ride alone?" He trembled. He did not know whether he was laughing or crying... "I will send your message, my Lady, but it has nothing to do with me. I am a merchant. Malkier is dead. Dead, I tell you." The heat in her eyes seemed to intensify, and she gripped her long, thick braid with one hand. "... My husband wears the hadori. So do you. Will Lan Mandragoran ride to the Last Battle alone?" He was laughing, shaking with it. And yet, he could feel tears rolling down his cheeks. It was madness! ... "He will not, my Lady..." P448 KoD (for people who don't understand the meaning: he practically agreed to commit suicide)

Now I know, you will tell me not to go mushy on you but that's what counts. Emotions. And I don't care if it was
written by a good writer or not and it feels tad pathetic. All I remember was having goosebumps coming during
my first read. And that carried me through Tuon and Mat chapters, who both I don't like.

Huh, I really don't want to persuade anyone. No, do not read WoT. It could change you. You do not want this.
You'd look at other authors and think - does s/he really mean/feel what s/he writes or it's just about making money?
Maybe it would move your out of your comfort zone, you know, real men do not show emotions.
And the woman there are all bitches, I tell you. Yeah.

[Fred Gallney]

How come that I can't believe you? With the love I mean. So you count the pages and don't remember KoD
because it didn't meet your expectations. O.K. that's fine, and you say there were just pointless plots. Sigh.
I haven't had much trouble to find a scene, among others, that remained with me and by no means was
pointless:

"My name is Nynaeve ti al'Meara Mandragoran. The message I want sent is this. My husband rides from World's End toward Tarwin's Gap, toward Tarmon Gai'don. Will he ride alone?" He trembled. He did not know whether he was laughing or crying... "I will send your message, my Lady, but it has nothing to do with me. I am a merchant. Malkier is dead. Dead, I tell you." The heat in her eyes seemed to intensify, and she gripped her long, thick braid with one hand. "... My husband wears the hadori. So do you. Will Lan Mandragoran ride to the Last Battle alone?" He was laughing, shaking with it. And yet, he could feel tears rolling down his cheeks. It was madness! ... "He will not, my Lady..." P448 KoD (for people who don't understand the meaning: he practically agreed to commit suicide)

Now I know, you will tell me not to go mushy on you but that's what counts. Emotions. And I don't care if it was
written by a good writer or not and it feels tad pathetic. All I remember was having goosebumps coming during
my first read. And that carried me through Tuon and Mat chapters, who both I don't like.

Huh, I really don't want to persuade anyone. No, do not read WoT. It could change you. You do not want this.
You'd look at other authors and think - does s/he really mean/feel what s/he writes or it's just about making money?
Maybe it would move your out of your comfort zone, you know, real men do not show emotions.
And the woman there are all bitches, I tell you. Yeah.

No, emotions are essential to a good book, and a constructive plot. The question that will define a good writer, is how far do you take pure emotions without moving the plot before an author's readers start yawning.

Jordan, I believe took emotions and a character's thought too far. Not to mention some of the pointless pages, of which a whole book was produced taking the form of Crossroads of Twilight.

Also, the vast complexity of the plot, as well as the characterization and emotions displayed throughout the series is why - besides the Eye of the World and possibly Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn - the series cannot ever be made into a substantial movie. Whoch is sad in my opinion.

[Evil Agent]

I read a quote somewhere where even Jordan himself admitted that Book 10 was a mistake. He tried to show where other characters were during the finale of Book 9, but that ended up turning Book 10 into an "interlude" book where nothing really happened. If you look at the plot summaries on wikipedia, I believe books 8, 9, and 10 just say stuff like "Perrin continues to search for Faile..." and "Elayne continues her struggle for the throne..."

I honestly believe that WoT is a very good series, but it could have been one of the absolute best ever if not for the big mistakes Jordan made. In my opinion, the series would have been absolutely phenomenal if he had continued to mainly focus on the core plot, and ended it within 10 books maximum. Books 7, 8, and 9 should have had non-stop action. Come on, seriously, no matter how much you enjoy the subplots... wouldn't you rather have seen Books 7, 8, and 9 focus on Rand uniting the last of the countries, and then heading into the final battle, rather than reading about some stupid search for a bowl, and then some painfully boring struggle for the throne of Caemlyn?!? Honestly, if he had stuck to the core plot it would have been one non-stop roller coaster. I'll even give you an example of how it could have been, if he had scrapped the Bowl of Winds, scrapped the Shaido and the hunt for Faile, and scrapped the ridiculous Succession in Caemlyn: By the end of Book 7, Rand has the allegiance of most of the Aes Sedai, and has conquered Ilian, right? Well how about instead of just fighting the Seanchan in Book 8, he wins them over with the Mat/Tuon thing (which happens 3 books later). Then in Book 9 he could have cleansed the taint (which he did) as well as killed off most of the remaining Forsaken (which he did). This means Jordan would also have to stop resurrecting them (another mistake). If things had happened this way, then Rand would already have most of the world in his control. Book 10 could then have started with the Blight unleashing all its remaining forces, and Rand mustering all the forces at his disposal, then marching into perhaps 700 pages of Tarmon Gaidon. Then the series ends!

I think the mistake was that Jordan lost perspective, over the long years of writing the series, and honestly forgot what made it so exciting. He probably grew bored of writing about Rand, and wanted to explore other characters and subplots. I can totally understand that, being an amateur writer myself. But I think it was an error in judgment, and it compromised his entire series. I don't think he intended for it to stretch out to 12 books. I think he merely misjudged how long it would take, and added to that problem by opening up too many long and boring subplots.

In my mind the series is nearly perfect up to the end of Book 4. Book 5 (as my thread says) is where it starts to go wrong (too many subplots, at the expense of a still-very-exciting central plot). And from that point on the subplots just took over. I don't think Jordan did this for "money". He could have finished the series early, and written other books that would definitely have still been successful. I honestly think it was just a loss of perspective, coupled with errors in judgment. I think it's sad, really.

[Fred Gallney]

I think Jordon succumbed to the temptation of continuing the series so it would never end. I mean, he created literally tonnes of notes and back story, and footnotes, and he didn't want his series to stop at six books. Instead, he decided he would keep it going for as long as possible, because he didn't want to let go.

Yes, what was up with the hunt for faile, which was pointless and boring, and Elayne trying to secure the throne. Hadn't Rand already secured it for her?. Unless Elayne is just stupid, or else Jordan decided to drag on the series. Also, Egwene (forgot how to spell her name) and her lot just kept moving from place to place, and not doing much. Heck, they didn't even invade the White Tower! We probably spent hundreds of pages with them just sitting around over a cup of tea and chatting, or taking a bath, or having dinner, or trying to be cool Aes Saidei.

Eye of the World was a pure masterpiece by the way. It was close to rivaling Lord of the Rings itself.

[ChrisW]

I read a quote somewhere where even Jordan himself admitted that Book 10 was a mistake.

Pretty sure he didn't use the word mistake. From memory he said that that as he got towards finishing the book he realised that he could have written it a better way but that it was to late to go back and start again. Either way I have no proplem with the book, nor do I think you can just skip it.

[Evil Agent]

ChrisW, I have to say, I would give your opinion more credibility if I had ever seen you mention one thing that you didn't like. But I believe you could search your entire post history, and only ever see you support Jordan.

I'm not saying it's impossible to think the WoT is perfect... I'm sure you believe that it is. I just find that highly... implausible. It feels like whenever anyone makes an honest attempt at criticizing an element of the books, you have your fingers in your ears, and are singing "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA!" On the other hand, I have seen many reasonable responses from other Jordan supporters (i.e. Bond).

Anyway, I'm trying to find Jordan's quote about Book 10, but I have had no luck so far. But I'm pretty sure I remember him saying, perhaps in different words, that it was a mistake.

[Fred Gallney]

Just before I continue, I was looking in an old interview with Robert Jordan, and I found out who killed Asmodean:

Q. Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

Here's the link - read and see for yourselves: http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcr...dan/index.html

I didn't think it was that obvious...

-------------------------------

Anyway, Book 10 could have easily been skipped, with the flow still constant from the end of Book 9 to the start of Book 11. Sure, maybe some people such as Eqwene's lot might have moved a few kilometres north, or Perrin is searching the desert instead of the mountains for Faile, but thats not such a big loss now.

Hey, if ever you can't sleep at night, just pull out Crossroads of Twilight and read a few pages - you'll be asleep in a second - guaranteed.

Anyway, the core plotline and some subplots are utter masterpieces in Wheel. But, there are too many subplots, places, characters and things, that you can't remember much - which is not very helpful to understanding the story.

[heasy1]

ChrisW, I have to say, I would give your opinion more credibility if I had ever seen you mention one thing that you didn't like. But I believe you could search your entire post history, and only ever see you support Jordan.

I'm not saying it's impossible to think the WoT is perfect... I'm sure you believe that it is. I just find that highly... implausible. It feels like whenever anyone makes an honest attempt at criticizing an element of the books, you have your fingers in your ears, and are singing "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA!" On the other hand, I have seen many reasonable responses from other Jordan supporters (i.e. Bond).

Before this thread turns into some pointless "who killed Amosdean" debate.
Just like to say the quote above is hilarious, and yet its true how some people cannot accept criticism of things they love.

I'm a massive fan of the wheel of time, and like mr evil have been reading it for about 8 years now since the age of 21 (weird)?? But no work is perfect.
The whole Shaido and Elayne and her mothers succession to the crown sub plots are the most annoying in fantasy history!!

Just bring back Moraine and get on with it.

Having said that i still enjoyed every book so far...although some alot more than others.

[columbob]

Just bring back Moraine and get on with it.

Is it really so obvious that Jordan was going to bring her back into the story? If so, that's really bad on the author's part.

She was a really cool character, but as far as I'm concerned, she's dead and gone. It's not really like there's a dearth of interesting characters to write about in book 12.

ChrisW: Honestly, what do you think book 10 brought to the story? Plotwise? Character development? Let's hear it, because I really don't remember anything good from that book. Just Jordan slowly placing his threads to have a dénouement in books 11 and 12. It really was just more of the same as books 8 and 9, without the explosive finale from Winter's Heart.

I also remember an interview with Jordan at the time book 10 was released. He said the series would need at least 3 more books, but no more than 5 to be completed. I think the response to book 10 (and the previous 2-3 books before) might have finally changed his outlook, and he decided to accelerate the pace and bring things to an end by book 12.

[Werthead]

I found the table on this page to be highly illuminating about the pace of the series.

If you compare Books 1-3 to Books 8-11, which all have a similar page count, you notice a diminishing number of chapters. The Eye of the World packs 53 chapters into 832 pages, whilst Crossroads of Twilight only has 30 into 864 (although it's 30,000 words shorter than EotW; that's weird but I guess down to the typeface change in Book 5). The early books had many more, shorter chapters which were punchier, leading to more frequent jumps between POVs (insteading of staying with the same one for 100 pages, moving to another for 100 pages, repeat, as in the later books) and a much faster pace.

It is the maxim of any kind of dramatic story that as events move towards the finale, the pace should be ramped up, tensions should rise and the audience should be biting their nails. With Wheel of Time, the pace was dialled down, tensions disippated and the audience was left pondering if watching paint dry would be more fun. Between them, KoD and AMoL if it's done well could possibly restore some of the series' lost credibility, but I find it telling that some authors are now coming out and directly saying that WoT is an object lesson in what not to do when constructing a long epic fantasy series.

Is it really so obvious that Jordan was going to bring her back into the story? If so, that's really bad on the author's part.

I'm guessing you haven't read Book 11, then?