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  1. #31
    Fulgurous Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    I just love it when you guys try to come up with absolutes, and when you call me the lowest common denominator. Now can we get back to the books please?

    I don't know that Crossroads of Twilight was an objective lesson to other fantasy writers. Crossroads was necessary in the sense that certain players had to be moved around, but the problem was mostly scene structure -- too many scenes structured the same way. I don't think it needed to be scrapped, but it certainly could have been revised. I don't try to re-vision an author much, but that title was in great contrast to the rest of the series.

    Basically, Jordan likes to write about greatly flawed, irritating, often clueless people who frequently get even worse. And this makes them rather interesting, for me. But mostly, it is the slowly unfolding tragedy of the story, writ large, that attracts me to it.

  2. #32
    Registered User Werthead's Avatar
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    Hey, I didn't say that I said that for the most Jordan avoids the problems associated with huge-selling authors.

    I also agree that the events in CoT were necessary, but not the space needed to tell them. It's quite interesting that the CoT cover blurb actually describes some of the events in KoD (Perrin making a dodgy deal to get Faile back - his alliance-of-convenience with the Seanchan - is what happens in KoD, not CoT), indicating that they were originally supposed to be the same book, and I think that there was plenty of scope for all the events in CoT to be shrunk down to a few chapters at most. KoD shows that Jordan's ability to fit large and numerous events into a 700-page book hadn't disappeared altogether and he could still get the storyline moving when he needed to.

  3. #33
    Saturn Comes Back Around Evil Agent's Avatar
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    spoilers...

    The reason that CoT is, IMO, a failure is because nothing is started, and nothing is resolved.

    If you read the summaries (on Wikipedia), it goes something like this:

    "Elayne continues her struggle for the Lion Throne..."
    "Mat continues to try to escape the Seanchan..."
    "Perrin continues trying to rescue Faile..."
    (italics mine)

    It's ridiculous. And I'm sure that somewhere I read a quote from Jordan himself, where he said that CoT was a mistake, largely because he started the book by retelling the moments during the cleansing of the taint, but from various other perspectives. By doing this, he was nearly halfway through CoT before anything "new" was happening. I firmly believe that CoT could have been scrapped altogether.
    Last edited by Evil Agent; October 5th, 2008 at 08:45 PM.

  4. #34
    Damn! It seems like this Goodking/Jordan thing will never end. Jordan isn't 100% original, but Goodkind is 0% original. Jordan has his problems-he could've easily condesnsed anything past book six into two books-he's still a decent auithor. Goodkind is good till you read anything that's not Goodkind. Even Forgotten Realms books are better. Just, go to something else. If you want less description and more action, stick to trilogies and never read anything more than 4 books long

  5. #35
    Would be writer? Sure. Davis Ashura's Avatar
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    It's too bad we can't have a 'director's cut' of WoT. Well, I guess what we have is the 'director's cut', but what I was hoping for would be a means in which books 6-11 are actually condensed down to 2 books and released as 2 novels. It's too bad Jordan isn't alive to do something like that.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Radone View Post
    It's too bad we can't have a 'director's cut' of WoT. Well, I guess what we have is the 'director's cut', but what I was hoping for would be a means in which books 6-11 are actually condensed down to 2 books and released as 2 novels. It's too bad Jordan isn't alive to do something like that.
    I've considered making it a pet project of mine at some point when the books are finished. Just go through and cut out all the extra crap. I even have outlines I made of the first 6 or so books somewhere on my CPU. I just feel like there is so much potential in the story that is wasted.

  7. #37
    So wait, is this thread about the similarities between wot and sot or the merits of wot as a series?

    how about both!

    sot is arguably just a borrowed congregation of plots and themes from other works. note the word arguably, sot fans.

    wot is somewhat original for the most part, and certainly original in some of it's characterization and scope aspects.

    we can piss and moan all day about the shortcomings of wot but in the end the majority of us still like the story as a whole. that's a success in my books.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Michigan View Post
    I've considered making it a pet project of mine at some point when the books are finished. Just go through and cut out all the extra crap. I even have outlines I made of the first 6 or so books somewhere on my CPU. I just feel like there is so much potential in the story that is wasted.
    That would place you in a pretty exclusive group of insanely presumptuous people. Unless you are secretly grrm or an amazing editor in disguise of course.

  9. #39
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    That would place you in a pretty exclusive group of insanely presumptuous people.

    Nah, there are tonnes of people who think they could improve on what RJ wrote.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisW View Post
    That would place you in a pretty exclusive group of insanely presumptuous people.

    Nah, there are tonnes of people who think they could improve on what RJ wrote.
    They're part of the same group I was referring to.

  11. #41
    Registered User Werthead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisW View Post
    That would place you in a pretty exclusive group of insanely presumptuous people.

    Nah, there are tonnes of people who think they could improve on what RJ wrote.
    Starting with Terry Goodkind :P

    And we're back on topic.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andols View Post
    They're part of the same group I was referring to.
    My point being it's not very "exclusive".

    Nice work Werthead

  13. #43
    Lovely segway(sp?) Wert.

    Was wot the first "reluctant hero/vast array of characters" fantasy? I'm trying to look through my list and it seems it would be one of the first to contain those two elements which seem fairly common now.

  14. #44
    Fulgurous Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    No, Wheel of Time was not the first reluctant hero with vast array of characters secondary world fantasy. He wasn't even the second. There were numerous titles who have used the combination, many of them bestsellers in the category and above, before Jordan and Goodkind. Pretty much most of them, as a matter of fact. That's how it ended up being called "epic" fantasy.

  15. #45
    Would be writer? Sure. Davis Ashura's Avatar
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    I think you could make a very good argument that Frodo, or for that matter, Bilbo, were both reluctant heroes. Moving out of genre, it should be just as easy to find some examples that pre-date LotR by a substantial margin. Heck, just the idea of a reluctant hero can be found all the way back in some of our earliest stories.

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