Sword, Sorcery, Likes, Dislikes and Recommendations

**Paul Lamontagne** · January 29th, 2009, 01:23 PM

I thought Joe Abercrombie's trilogy ruled. I can't get into Song of Ice and Fire - I just can't stomach the Dothraki and I don't like his names, although I think Martin's Fevre Dream is perhaps the best vampire novel I've ever read. I love Robert Howard's Conan stories. I thought the tone of Rothfuss's Name of the Wind was too smug - Kvothe seemed like a dick - and so I didn't enjoy that. I love Moorcock's Elric saga. I think Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd & The Gray Mouser tales are the greatest fantasy stories ever written, bar none (and that includes LOTR, which I love and put at #2). I cannot abide any story with names like "Shadowborn" or "Kingkiller" in it. I think R Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy was a masterwork of genius and the best fantasy work of the new(ish) millenium. I did not like Wizard's First Rule. I loved Curse of Chalion. I did not love Bitterwood. I thought Bernard Cornwell's Arthurian trilogy (Winter King etc) was amazing, and recommend it to fantasy fans though it is more of a dark-age adventure novel (and perhaps the best one ever written, along with Frans Bengtsson's The Long Ships and Michael Chabon's Gentlemen of the Road) . I loved Tanith Lee's Dreams of Dark and Light. I think Robert Jordan was overrated. I love Neil Gaiman. I loved the first four books of the Dark Tower series. I loved Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle. The works of Tim Powers - especially Anubis Gates, Drawing of the Dark, On Stranger Tides and Declare - I recommend wholeheartedly, especially to fans of high-quality, very literate fantasy. They are EXCELLENT. And Thomas Ligotti out-Lovecrafts Lovecraft, for anyone who likes their Weird weird and their horror profound.

So, I ask you, apart from Brandon Sanderson and Scott Lynch, what can you guys recommend?

**Rob B** · January 29th, 2009, 02:53 PM

Let's see...for Sword and Sorcery you can always go back to Karl Edward Wagner, though I suspect you probably knew that.

Matthew Stover is superb, he mixes equal dashes of physics, sword & sorcery and heroic fantasy in his Acts of Caine saga; Heroes Die, Blade of Tyshalle, and Caine Black Knife.

**Eldanuumea** · January 29th, 2009, 03:04 PM

I didn't realize there was a third Caine book! I will put it at the top of my to-buy list.

If you love Neil Gaiman and Tanith Lee, I would suggest Robert de Lint. The first thing by him that I read was Spirit in the Wires, and I was so impressed I bought several more of his books.

I agree with you about Martin's Fevre Dream. It is not well-known among lovers of the contemporary onslaught of vamp fiction, which is a shame because it is an extraordinary story, unlike any other vampire novel I've read.

**Hobbit** · January 29th, 2009, 03:14 PM

Nicely read list, Paul. Welcome!

I'm going to suggest two: one people round here tend to think I do a lot and the other I rarely do. But as a fan with that list, I think these'll work.

The one every knows I like: ASH A Secret History by Mary Gentle. That's the omnibus edition if you can get it.

Actually not too much in the way of Sword and Sorcery there, though it is in there if you read it. One of my favourite reads ever.

The second is one which I think is underrated: the Morgaine Series by CJ Cherryh:

1. Gate of Ivrel (1976)
2. Well of Shiuan (1978)
3. Fires of Azeroth (1979) (I have these in an omnibus, Chronicles of Morgaine (omnibus) (1985)) and
4. Exile's Gate (1988)

If you like Moorcock's Multiverses I think you'll like these.

Mark

**Zsinj** · January 29th, 2009, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Hobbit

Nicely read list, Paul. Welcome!

I'm going to suggest two: one people round here tend to think I do a lot and the other I rarely do. But as a fan with that list, I think these'll work.

The one every knows I like: ASH A Secret History by Mary Gentle. That's the omnibus edition if you can get it.

Actually not too much in the way of Sword and Sorcery there, though it is in there if you read it. One of my favourite reads ever.

The second is one which I think is underrated: the Morgaine Series by CJ Cherryh:

1. Gate of Ivrel (1976)
2. Well of Shiuan (1978)
3. Fires of Azeroth (1979) (I have these in an omnibus, Chronicles of Morgaine (omnibus) (1985)) and
4. Exile's Gate (1988)

If you like Moorcock's Multiverses I think you'll like these.

Mark

Hobbit, I've always heard that Cherryh's Morgaine Series takes a more sociological angle than straight up sword and sorcery.
My personal recommendations would be "The Dark Elf Trilogy" by R.A. Salvatore; Robert E. Howard's sagas of Conan the Cimmerian, Kull of Atlantis, Solomon Kane, and Bran Mak Morn; Weis & Hickman's "Draoglance Chronicles Trilogy" and "Dragonlance Legends Trilogy", and David Gemmell's "Legend", "The King Beyond the Gate," and "Waylander".

**Hobbit** · January 29th, 2009, 03:44 PM

Hobbit, I've always heard that Cherryh's Morgaine Series takes a more sociological angle than straight up sword and sorcery.

OK: I can see that; but I found them an interesting variant from Moorcock.

Neither of my choices I would say are 'straight-up sword and sorcery': I think the Leiber and the Moorcock, not to mention Conan cover those.

Mark

**Eldanuumea** · January 29th, 2009, 04:05 PM

For "sword and sorcery" stuff, there's always the Jennifer Roberson series that begins with Sword-Dancer. Those are great reads.

I'm trying to remember the Lord Valentine series set in Marjipoor, by Robert Silverberg. Those might be a possible suggestion.

The Troy Game series by Sarah Douglass is full of both swords and sorcery, but I have the impression they are not widely acclaimed. I don't really know why. I enjoyed the series, though, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend you try the first book.

**Randy M.** · January 29th, 2009, 04:08 PM

Since you apparently enjoy Howard & Lovecraft, I'd suggest the third of the Weird Tales triumvirate, Clark Ashton Smith. It might be hard to find, but the collection Zothique could be considered proto-S&S. The stories take place as the sun grows dimmer and life on Earth is waning, when Magic has reentered the world and necromancers are rife. The stories are short on battle and derring-do, but long and strong on exoticism, weirdness and atmosphere. Smith brings to the tales a strong sense of irony and a sense of impending doom that sometimes plays out and sometimes doesn't, so the stories do not become predictable.

Have you read C.L. Moore's Jirel of Joiry stories? Moore was a contemporary of the above trio, though rather younger. The Jirel stories were reissued not too long ago by Gollanz (sp?) and back in the '80s by Ace. I've only read one or two, but the young Moore was a writer with a distinctive, emotive prose style and a vivid imagination for setting and event. I'm not sure I'd advise reading one right after the other -- I did that with her Northwest Smith stories and found myself noting too many similarities in style and phrasing, which probably decreased my enjoyment -- but a couple at a time might well be satisfying.

Brian MacNaughton's The Throne of Bones might also interest you. This showed up in the mid- to late '90s. Again, a story collection, one that ranges from pretty close to standard S&S to stories that verge more on horror, and again with a sense of irony, this one more likely to provoke a chuckle than the grimmer irony of Smith. The suite of stories that make up the titular story are extremely well-done. One of the few books I know of that makes extensive and varied use of ghouls, and that is one of its main strengths.

Randy M.

**Paul Lamontagne** · January 29th, 2009, 05:38 PM

First, I'd like to thank you all for your responses. Very thoughtful and I will look into everything I'm not familiar with. Secondly, I just want to point out that I didn't mean to suggest I only like Sword & Sorcery-type fantasy, though I lean in that direction, I only used the term because I like it more. I'm definitely open to high fantasy, dark, epic, heroic, urban - what have you. And I wrote that rambling list to both give an idea of what has struck my fancy, and to make suggestions to anyone who hasn't read any of those I mentioned. And once again, I IMPLORE anyone who hasn't read Fritz Lieber to do so - when I put him in the same league as Tolkien (though they are very different stylistically) I do not do so lightly. His work is that good, and is grossly overlooked and, I fear, fading fast. Every time I go to the bookstore I make sure to take Lieber's Fafhrd & Gray Mouser books and turn them face out, as though they were new releases, to help catch someone's eye.

Originally Posted by Randy M.

Since you apparently enjoy Howard & Lovecraft, I'd suggest the third of the Weird Tales triumvirate, Clark Ashton Smith. It might be hard to find, but the collection Zothique could be considered proto-S&S. The stories take place as the sun grows dimmer and life on Earth is waning, when Magic has reentered the world and necromancers are rife. The stories are short on battle and derring-do, but long and strong on exoticism, weirdness and atmosphere. Smith brings to the tales a strong sense of irony and a sense of impending doom that sometimes plays out and sometimes doesn't, so the stories do not become predictable.

I just took the first two volumes of the new five-volume Smith collection out of the library (one is called The Door to Saturn and the other is The End of the Story)! I absolutely love them. They go in chronological order according to when they were written, though, and so contain no Zothique tales. But did you know that all of Smith's work is available for free online?

http://www.eldritchdark.com/

I haven't read the Jirel of Joiry stuff but I've read ABOUT them, and can never find them. And I'd never heard of Throne of Bones but it looks AWESOME. thanks!

**Paul Lamontagne** · January 29th, 2009, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Hobbit

Nicely read list, Paul. Welcome!

I'm going to suggest two: one people round here tend to think I do a lot and the other I rarely do. But as a fan with that list, I think these'll work.

The one every knows I like: ASH A Secret History by Mary Gentle. That's the omnibus edition if you can get it.

Actually not too much in the way of Sword and Sorcery there, though it is in there if you read it. One of my favourite reads ever.

The second is one which I think is underrated: the Morgaine Series by CJ Cherryh:

1. Gate of Ivrel (1976)
2. Well of Shiuan (1978)
3. Fires of Azeroth (1979) (I have these in an omnibus, Chronicles of Morgaine (omnibus) (1985)) and
4. Exile's Gate (1988)

If you like Moorcock's Multiverses I think you'll like these.

Mark

Thanks, Mark. I believe I've read a number of your reviews here (I've been visiting the site for a while but just started on the forums) and appreciate your opinion.

Also, I have to ask - have you guys gotten an advance copy of the upcoming Bakker novel The Judging Eye?

**Seak** · January 29th, 2009, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Paul Lamontagne

And once again, I IMPLORE anyone who hasn't read Fritz Lieber to do so - when I put him in the same league as Tolkien (though they are very different stylistically) I do not do so lightly. His work is that good, and is grossly overlooked and, I fear, fading fast. Every time I go to the bookstore I make sure to take Lieber's Fafhrd & Gray Mouser books and turn them face out, as though they were new releases, to help catch someone's eye.

They are now the brand new additions to my "to-read" list along with Tim Powers and Ash (from Hobbit). Thanks guys.

**Hobbit** · January 29th, 2009, 06:55 PM

Thank you, Paul for your very kind comments.

I think sometimes knowing a little about the reviewer's tastes can steer readers towards their own personal tastes. Always happy to pass on likes: it's what we're here for, after all! I'd be interested to read what you think about any of those above.

Also, I have to ask - have you guys gotten an advance copy of the upcoming Bakker novel The Judging Eye?

At the moment I think both Rob Bedford and myself have copies. I could be wrong, but I think Rob's doing that review.

Having had a read of the first few pages myself, (couldn't resist!) it looks good, though. And perhaps a bit more straight forward than the previous books.

Which for some will be good.

Mark

**Hobbit** · January 29th, 2009, 07:02 PM

They are now the brand new additions to my "to-read" list along with Tim Powers and Ash (from Hobbit). Thanks guys.

Seak: if it helps, I would also recommend Fritz Leiber's work. Such a talented writer and not just for his Fafhrd & Gray Mouser books, though these days they are his most famous work (except perhaps his SF story The Big Time, which he won a Hugo for.) So many writers have mentioned him as an influence: Ray Feist and George RR Martin, for two. Horror, SF, urban fantasy... Fritz was one of the first.

I have a lovely signed copy of the Leiber Chronicles, which I paid an arm and a leg for a few years ago. Lovely stuff.

Later edit: Don't know how easy they are to get outside the UK but Gollancz have two great omnibuses of the Fafhrd & Gray Mouser tales: HERE and HERE.

The first one's been recently rereleased with a great new cover. Hope that helps!

Mark

**Seak** · January 29th, 2009, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Hobbit

Seak: if it helps, I would also recommend Fritz Leiber's work. Such a talented writer and not just for his Fafhrd & Gray Mouser books, though these days they are his most famous work (except perhaps his SF story The Big Time, which he won a Hugo for.) So many writers have mentioned him as an influence: Ray Feist and George RR Martin, for two. Horror, SF, urban fantasy... Fritz was one of the first.

I have a lovely signed copy of the Leiber Chronicles, which I paid an arm and a leg for a few years ago. Lovely stuff.

Mark

I can't say how much I love this site. Those are some of my favorite authors (I have only about a couple hundred favorites), so I'm excited for some good stuff.

**algernoninc** · January 30th, 2009, 02:55 AM

I was planning to start on Fritz Leiber sometime this year, so your praises will move the books up in my waiting list. It's good to see what your other preferences are, being close to mine give more weight to your opinion [i also think Fevre Dream is the best vampire novel i read so far, and I also like Bernard Cornwell historical ]

I would add in the Sword and Sorcery recommendations the Thieves World shared world collection, edited by Lynn Abbey, and some of David Gemmell books - I've only read Legend and Winter Warriors so far and I'm not a specialist, but he has quite a loyal following.
For Swords without Sorcery i recently finished 1610: A Sundial in a Grave by Mary Gentle.